Verizon Says It Turned Over Data Without Court Orders
Verizon Says It Turned Over Data Without Court Orders
Firm's Letter to Lawmakers Details Government Requests
By Ellen Nakashima
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, October 16, 2007
Verizon Communications, the nation's second-largest telecom company, told congressional investigators that it has provided customers' telephone records to federal authorities in emergency cases without court orders hundreds of times since 2005.
The company said it does not determine the requests' legality or necessity because to do so would slow efforts to save lives in criminal investigations.
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Verizon and AT&T said it was not their role to second-guess the legitimacy of emergency government requests.
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Firm's Letter to Lawmakers Details Government Requests
By Ellen Nakashima
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, October 16, 2007
Verizon Communications, the nation's second-largest telecom company, told congressional investigators that it has provided customers' telephone records to federal authorities in emergency cases without court orders hundreds of times since 2005.
The company said it does not determine the requests' legality or necessity because to do so would slow efforts to save lives in criminal investigations.
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Verizon and AT&T said it was not their role to second-guess the legitimacy of emergency government requests.
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did verizon wireless do the same thing if not this is not a forum for lnadlines!
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Verizon Wireless is a joint venture of Verizon Communications and Vodafone Group, with 55 and 45 percent ownership respectively.
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Plooky for some reason thinks every company that owns part of another does the exact same thing as the company that owns part of it or owns part of the other...
So by his logic since VZ is a publicly traded company that everyone that owns VZ stock must also give information about their customers in whatever line of work they are in to law enfocement! OMG!
So by his logic since VZ is a publicly traded company that everyone that owns VZ stock must also give information about their customers in whatever line of work they are in to law enfocement! OMG!
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Keep trying...
Trying to argue that a company which has controlling stake in a company they own has no influence whatsoever on their methodologies or policies is the very definition of asinine.
Trying to argue that a company which has controlling stake in a company they own has no influence whatsoever on their methodologies or policies is the very definition of asinine.
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Thank you for reminding me why I shouldnt bother responding to you.. you have no idea how companies work. You just go right on thinking that VZ runs the day by day operations at VZW...
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So owners have no say in which that they own?
Surely you can see how silly a concept that is.
Surely you can see how silly a concept that is.
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If the owner OWNES 100% of the company, not a joint venture with share holders.
Some share holders on the same side may disagree, and vis versa.
Some share holders on the same side may disagree, and vis versa.
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what does it matter? it's going to go to the feds with a court order anyways? why waste tax payers money for it to go through court when you can give it up without anything to hide?
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Because we have separation of powers, that is why.
Why don't we just get rid of all trials as well to save money? Sounds silly doesn't it?
Also, in case you missed it, some companies (Qwest) get over a $1000 for a wiretap, and $750 a month to maintain it from the federal government.
Why don't we just get rid of all trials as well to save money? Sounds silly doesn't it?
Also, in case you missed it, some companies (Qwest) get over a $1000 for a wiretap, and $750 a month to maintain it from the federal government.
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i figure if the Gov and NSA wants to keep this country safe our privacy will be violated and if that is the case and no attacks will happen as result then I am all for this submission of data without court orders. If you are hiding something, you should be worried, but if you are not like me and millions of Americans out there then you should not be worried and let the government continue to spend like crazy protection us and this country.
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woo I can't disagree more. This is the first step to a country we all will not like nor will I continue to defend if we continue to go this way. I agree that you don't need a court order just because it goes through the US but if you are listening to a US citizen then you need to abide by the constitution. If you don't why not throw it away and make a new one that says we only have the rights if its ok with the government and it doesn't make it to hard on the security state they are trying to make! The terrorist win if they disrupt our lives. They have done that so they already one in an aspect of what they try to do.
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No problem wombough , as we will disagree on countless other opinions and statements out there. if the NSA and Gov want to know who I am calling overseas and the conversations, I do not have any issues with that. it is kind of like the same situation via the emails. If certain words were said, they would get flagged. The terrorists already have won when they continue to commit their crimes against humanity and that is why all security is being closely watched and the capital expenditures have gone up and if a few civil liberties are violated then so be it. it is kind of like Israel and their efforts against stopping terrorism from happening. Monitoring calls, checking baggage, having checkpoints and other initiatives to stop the terrorism. A...
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your comparing a country that does not gaurentee civil liberties as the US does. We have no room to violate any of them unless we change the constitution that is what we are forgetting. Even if you agree lets say you are right it still can not be done legally in the us because of one document.
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I think when you are at war though with an enemy that wants to destroy you all liberties should be eliminated and the number one goal is to protect the citizens as much as you can without sustaining another attack.
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america is not israel, israel is under constant threat of war and terrorism, not america, we've let this sept11 scare all americans to death to giving up our freedoms, if you want a facist gov't here then you can accept it, i cant tolerate a government harrassing me, listening to me and watching me all the time and presuming me guilty before innocent. i want to vote, i want to choose my leaders and destiny.
the govt is scaring citizens into giving up their freedom, have you not read about what happened in Germany, Italy, Spain, Russia? did those people get security in return, did terrorism stop, no the govt committed terrorism instead of a few bandits. germany killed millions of jews, romas(gypsies), pagans, atheists, communists, left...
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the govt is scaring citizens into giving up their freedom, have you not read about what happened in Germany, Italy, Spain, Russia? did those people get security in return, did terrorism stop, no the govt committed terrorism instead of a few bandits. germany killed millions of jews, romas(gypsies), pagans, atheists, communists, left...
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So if I am understanding you correctly, wombough.. you are saying that it should be ok for terrorist to plan and execute terrorism just so you dont have to worry about someone from the government reviewing your telephone calls because are you associating with suspected terrorist or making calls to countries known to harbor terrorists?
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If the government needs to tap citizen phone lines to stop an attack from overseas, I want a smarter government.
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robtheman said:
If the government needs to tap citizen phone lines to stop an attack from overseas, I want a smarter government.
i second that.
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THE UNITED STATES IS SAFE!!!!! we are still strong stop letting the media think the us is vulnerable and weak so you can give up your freedoms, i feel safe as i ever did before sept 11, which is our Reichstag's Fire!, if this government destroys all my freedoms in the name of non-existant total security then im leaving, i cherish freedom unlike you, and if you want to live in an authoritarian government, they so be it, i love freedom, i love america for what it was, free!, when our constitution is dismantled in the name of safety, then america has truly died
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The government should follow the law and the claim that they can not obtain the same information legally has been shown to be false time and time again.
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thank you that is what I am saying. Follow the law all of us need to so do they!
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Frankly Nextel18, that attitude and those who share it are frightening and in direct contradiction of the Constitution of the United States.
The Eternal Value of Privacy
Brush Schneier, 05.18.06 | 2:00 AM
http://www.wired.com/politics/security/commentary/se ... »
The most common retort against privacy advocates -- by those in favor of ID checks, cameras, databases, data mining and other wholesale surveillance measures -- is this line: "If you aren't doing anything wrong, what do you have to hide?"
Some clever answers: "If I'm not doing anything wrong, then you have no cause to watch me." "Because the government gets to define what's wrong, and they keep changing the definition." "Because you migh...
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The Eternal Value of Privacy
Brush Schneier, 05.18.06 | 2:00 AM
http://www.wired.com/politics/security/commentary/se ... »
The most common retort against privacy advocates -- by those in favor of ID checks, cameras, databases, data mining and other wholesale surveillance measures -- is this line: "If you aren't doing anything wrong, what do you have to hide?"
Some clever answers: "If I'm not doing anything wrong, then you have no cause to watch me." "Because the government gets to define what's wrong, and they keep changing the definition." "Because you migh...
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I agree completely. I don't do anything wrong in my life however I think what I do do legally is my own business!
There are some things well allot of things that are legal that people do not want out their!
There are some things well allot of things that are legal that people do not want out their!
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Tyranny, whether it arises under threat of foreign physical attack or under constant domestic authoritative scrutiny, is still tyranny.
Sums it up quite well imho.
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.. did you read the article? do you really think that law enforcment makes emergeny requests to telecoms becaues they get bored and just want to look through someones phone records?
And what phone numbers do you think you could be calling that are illegal?
And what phone numbers do you think you could be calling that are illegal?
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They don't even make the requests... they simply obtain the information.
Perhaps you should reread the article.
Perhaps you should reread the article.
Verizon Communications, the nation's second-largest telecom company, told congressional investigators that it has provided customers' telephone records to federal authorities in emergency cases without court orders hundreds of times since 2005.
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primus said:
.. did you read the article? do you really think that law enforcment makes emergeny requests to telecoms becaues they get bored and just want to look through someones phone records?
And what phone numbers do you think you could be calling that are illegal?
yes i know the law makes request for info when it has nothing to do with terrorist. law is human and get the felling that they can do what ever they want by using the excuse of terrorists for what ever they want. like getting info on girlfriends calls to new boyfriend. just had this happen to someone i know. but at this time there is one less fbi agent. law enforcement is not above the laws, neither is politicians or judges. so simple put ...
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Whoa, I definitely did not read that whole thing. Perhaps a summation would have been better. I actually do not care what you have to say about my feelings towards keeping countries safe and if they have to violate a few laws and privacy then they can to support this country. They should modify the constitution also to add in some clauses. The NSA and Gov needs to do everything possible to protect us and I don’t care how far they must go to actually have that happening because I would rather have a few of my rights violated then me or my cousins/family end up dead and/or this country lose people and money.
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How is it unbelievable? You would rather have people’s rights violated then people being safe? Give me a way that the NSA and Government can easily obtain information without violating rights and without doing a court order because by the time they receive that court order, the suspect they are targeting will already have disappeared.
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The US was founded on those rights that was the whole reason from breaking apart from the UK. We are the safest country in the world and I believe rights are far more important then anything. We base everything on being a free country. I fight to keep this country free. As do every other marine I know. If you take those away you will need to bring back the draft as no one will defend what you are proposing!
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I know that this country was founded on those rights but look at some of the terrorism that happened in this country like 9/11, McVeigh and the whole OKC bombing, and there are others out there. With this NSA program actually working correctly without any one complaining I am sure we would have stopped all of those attacks in this country. We are the safest country now because we have adopted so many measures to help this country. I would also say Israel is also safe because for the same initiatives they have used. To be frank, I feel more safe there than here. in fact, some of the initiatives that USA instills today are what Israel mentioned to them. regardless, I would rather have people’s rights being violated than deaths.
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well that is you not me. Rights are the most important thing. Without them we are no different then any other country. Like I said why not just declare martial law and we can be the safest place in the world without any rights!!
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I guess so. So with your logic, you would rather die than have rights? I agree with you that they should put martial law.
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please I can't believe you would want to live like that. If that is how you want then go. There are plenty of countries like that. Martial law is a dictator ship with the military in control. Nothing good will come about it. You will be safe but not from the gov. Sorry people die and as tragic as 9/11 was more die as I said on the roads . Cancer ect ect.
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I love my life and how I spend time and money and travel all over the world but if some things are sacrificed so that I can live, I do not really mind. Obviously people die, but if you can help them from dying, I think you should do things that are possible to make them survive and live a great life. Martial law should only be used if country is at war and last time I checked this country is in war.
So might as well not spend the hundreds of billions on the army and other initiative that we have from intelligence to army personal improvements and just care about our own people and the lack of health insurance that we have in this country. We shouldn’t even care that Iran and other countries want to kill us? So why are we in Iraq fig...
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So might as well not spend the hundreds of billions on the army and other initiative that we have from intelligence to army personal improvements and just care about our own people and the lack of health insurance that we have in this country. We shouldn’t even care that Iran and other countries want to kill us? So why are we in Iraq fig...
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so you would say declare martial law so there will be curfews no roaming the streets. House car and person can be searched if a solder or marine wants to and violate your home and life? But you would be safe1
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I rather feel free then safe. I will defend myself. It has already been ruled in the courts it is not the gov or the cops job to protect you. It is your job. That is were the rights come in.
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It goes back to my point then, why have the Government and cops to protect us because according to you and your statement about the courts they do not have to, and would save a lot of money not defending us. Let us allow terrorists to kill all of us. Alternatively, what if we buy tons of guns, buy a few fighter jets, and some terrorism equipment so we can spy on each other and overseas to allow for no terrorist bombings to happen. Given your statement; “That is were the rights come in.†let us take all of that equipment that we have hiding in our basement and use them to protect us, or would that still be wrong?
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no its their job to try and prevent it and enforce laws. Not protect individuals. Terrorist can not kill all of us because I for one will die protecting our RIGHTS and FREEDOMS. I have sworn to defend the constitution of the US. Not a particular person or their views. And it has not changed in over 200 years and would take more then 3/4 of the states to make a change to it. So put it up for a debate. And if the majority of the people go for it then so be it. But I am certain it will fail. That is why since 2003 their has been no attempt to change it! If GB thinks its so important to do what he wants to do then he should make an attempt to do it within the constitution it is set up that way. NOt go around it just to make people safe!
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You just said they do not have to support us. GB is doing everything he can to make sure this country is safe and the next president will the same thing. So let’s abolish everything that protect us from domestic to abroad. We can’t violate our own rights so why violate theirs.
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we are not violating theirs they have nothing to violate. Nothing is set up over their.
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They have a democracy in Iraq, though. I can see why if people have things to hide they would be anxious to say wait wait and scream foul. If they do not like these then complain and have the constitution be changed. Not sure a president will say let us secure our privacy or else we will die.
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they do but they do not have a bill of rights yet. And let me tell you first hand people that get searched and have nothing to hide don't like their home invaded. Trust me on that. We get more resistant from people with nothing then we do with something to hide. Wonder why that is.
Just like when you watch cops can I search your car sure officer go right ahead. Oh damn he found my drugs.
Then there is me just the other day on I95 got pulled over for not using my turn signal to change lanes. OK he was right I didn't. He asked can I search your car. My reply go F**k yourself! His we don't need to get all mad about it. Here it is me and my wife and 3 kids in a car. Military sticker on my car and he has my ID. My response yeah their is a ...
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Just like when you watch cops can I search your car sure officer go right ahead. Oh damn he found my drugs.
Then there is me just the other day on I95 got pulled over for not using my turn signal to change lanes. OK he was right I didn't. He asked can I search your car. My reply go F**k yourself! His we don't need to get all mad about it. Here it is me and my wife and 3 kids in a car. Military sticker on my car and he has my ID. My response yeah their is a ...
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oh and if we continue to do things wrong the courts will throw out things and nothing will ever get done. We stopped that bombing but since we did it illegally we had to let them go. Is that what you want?
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if there is just cause for that officer or military person to stop someone then he has a right to stop them and ask them questions. If they see that there is further, proof of the person is hiding something then he has every right to search. If they have no cause whatsoever to search a house or a car then obviously that isn’t right, but to protect us, they have every reason to do what they are doing. When I stayed/lived in Israel, they would search me 100s of times my friends and my parents and they wouldn’t care either because that is the way of our live there. The would also do searches when people go into hotels, bars, restaurants, and movies and other places. We know that in order to protect us they need to spend an do whatev...
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actually our constitution was changed over 26 times, the first ten times gave us our core civil liberties, and the others to protect those freedoms and give freedoms to others that didnt have it in the first place(blacks), but i understand what you mean, my family and i have sworn to protect our constitution, though i am not in the military, i believe our constitution is paramount and it should be protected at all cost, we should not be scared into giving up all of our freedoms, our government wants us to do that, but we are a democracy, we can choose a new government, people like nextel18 make me upset that it is ok for a govt to take away freedoms, my people have been in 2nd class status for over 200 years, and recently after the '60s we k...
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Wow Nextel18, this thread has been most enlightening in regards to your thought process... and not in a good way as far as I'm concerned.
It seems like you have a clearcut case of 9/11 fever. Whether it's innate or born out of a steady stream of fearmongering I'm usure of. Either way, I see it as more dangerous than a lot of the so-called "threats" we face.
I am interested in your take on this mashup
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7aFXRAW7mg »
It seems like you have a clearcut case of 9/11 fever. Whether it's innate or born out of a steady stream of fearmongering I'm usure of. Either way, I see it as more dangerous than a lot of the so-called "threats" we face.
We shouldn’t even care that Iran and other countries want to kill us?
I am interested in your take on this mashup
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7aFXRAW7mg »
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Thanks, I am happy also with the statements and opinions that I have made and you and others who are dissenting won’t change my views. I guess perhaps people should live in a society where suicide bombs where every day life and in order to change it the government must act and once they did, those bombings subsided.
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I guess perhaps people should live in a society where suicide bombs where every day life and in order to change it the government must act and once they did, those bombings subsided.
Ever hear of "blowback"?
Oh yeah, that's right... they hate freedoms...
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In that case, we should stop all our war activities, and shouldn’t defend this country. That motto is the same with the terrorists. If they don’t live in liberty, they kill innocent people.
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wow you need to stick with wireless things.
Our war activities are to (well suppose to be) to keep us free and enjoying the rights we fought so hard to keep!
Our war activities are to (well suppose to be) to keep us free and enjoying the rights we fought so hard to keep!
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Not even certain yourself with why we are all over the country supposedly fighting for freedom? So when our troops go on their land searching house by house it is ok, but if they do it here by just tapping our phone lines it is not? doesn’t make any sense.
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We have a working govt. With laws and protections that have been in place for over 200 years. They still do not have a working govt police force and all. They are infiltrated by militias and if ours were then yes it would be an issue. Have you been in iraq? No? Then please do not talk about what we are doing there. I have been there and seen first hand. What we do there has a reason and once they get it straight there will be no need for it all!
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I haven’t been to Iraq but I have seen some interest accounts there who tell me that nothing has happened there but continued violence. USA did a great thing of getting Hussein but then should have pulled out and then attack Iran. Great idea for this country to go into Iraq and still be at only a 50% control over the past few years in Bagdad. So we can violate their rights (people over there trying to kills us) but if this country violates ours and protect us, it isn’t right? Strange.
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USA did a great thing of getting Hussein but then should have pulled out and then attack Iran.
😳
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they don't have any rights for the 3rd time!!! They have no bill of rights or anything that we have. And I have been over there and we are making a difference. I don't care what you read. All they like to say is the negative. I have seen the positive first hand. I have also seen the negative and have to live with what I have seen and had to do. However you can't go into a country and destroy the gov and then pull out! What do ytou think would be there if we did that. Terrorist heaven! Like I said you know everything about wireless but very little on these things. We should have never went into iraq there was no reason to other then he was a bad man. There are allot of them in this world. But now that we are there we must finish or we will b...
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They do have the Bill of Rights. search for it you will find it. I remember Bush and the other PM were working on one. Well, according to reports that I have obtained and talking to people who actually know, they have said that same information with regarding the lack of progress in Iraq. More importantly, if you do not believe that which I doubt you would, Congress has heard testimony from army personnel and other special saying the same thing. Congressmen have even questioned their motives and asked them why only a certain part. Go watch Cspan sometimes. So continue to have the massive influx of ammunition from Iraq going into these terrorists and continue to kill people. what is the current death rate of solders dying? Very good cause hu...
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I don't need to watch anything I have been there.
Your way of thinking is whats the problem. We are a free country and there are ways of doing things. Fix the court system. If they have probable cause then they will get a warrant. It doesn't take that much time.
Your way of thinking is whats the problem. We are a free country and there are ways of doing things. Fix the court system. If they have probable cause then they will get a warrant. It doesn't take that much time.
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Of course you do because people who are overseas and when they come back say everything is fine but when Congress drills the army and specialists they say a different tune. My way of thinking is what is supposed to be because I am not biased and I look for sound opinions. My aim isn’t to change your mind and if you do not like my statements nor my opinions you could always say lets disagree to agree or just don’t respond.
By the time there is a search warrant on either the car, the house, or the suspect on the phone, those guys would have been gone.
By the time there is a search warrant on either the car, the house, or the suspect on the phone, those guys would have been gone.
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EVERYTHING IS FAR FROM FINE! But it is not as bad as they make it seem. They only show the bad never the good!
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Attacking Iran is the single worst thing that could happen right now. Hell, even immediately after we got Hussein it would have been a terrible idea. You're completely out of your mind.
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Iran is the sole reason why the violence in Iraq has expanded and you need to attack them. It will happen anyway. You do not want Iran to become nuclear.
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yeah of course not its almost like North Korea bieng nuu.... oh wait they are!
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and I don't see us jumping across the DMZ. Must be the million man army NK has. Guess we can pick and choose who we want to invade!
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Yeah... that makes alot of sense.
Especially when you consider that the majority of insurgents in Iraq are from Saudia Arabia.
Especially when you consider that the majority of insurgents in Iraq are from Saudia Arabia.
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Iran has always been a bigger threat than Iraq. They've been trying to get nuclear technology to wipe Israel off the map for quite some time. I would have understood going to war with Iran instead of Iraq. The war in Iraq makes no sense to me.
However...
The state that our military is currently in would lead to a complete disaster if we went after Iran right now.
However...
The state that our military is currently in would lead to a complete disaster if we went after Iran right now.
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I disagree. Iran is key they can pull out and head towards Iran and launch from their AFCs.
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The people in our military are already overworked. If we had a draft, maybe going to Iran would be feasible. I'm against that idea. The shape we're in right now, we wouldn't be able to take out Iran. Not to mention the bad reputation we have already. It would just get worse if we invaded Iran as a preemptive measure.
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I agree it is overworked but if you are just going to send some fights and some scuds and AFC then I don’t think it is overworked. Some are in the area anyway.
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Sounds like you should replace the current generals since you seem to know what would work best.
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I like some of the generals out there but I think the chain of command and tactics aren’t working out together and allowing the strategy to work. If I was put in charge I probably would do some damage especially with our great army and the $500B/year+ in capital expenditures that we spend on them.
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oh please the generals can only do what the president allows. Come to terms with it! ANd I think someone with 30+ years of military exp knows more then you ever will!
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If he's from Israel, that means he fought in the Israeli military. Those dudes are pretty hardcore.
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Cronyism and only keeping generals who agree with you regardless of the facts at hand isn't working... who would have thunk it.
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https://www.phonescoop.com/carriers/forum.php?fm=m&f ... »
Where does Saudi Arabia fit into your grand schemes? You know, the place that a majority of the insurgents we currently are fighting in Iraq are coming from.
Where does Saudi Arabia fit into your grand schemes? You know, the place that a majority of the insurgents we currently are fighting in Iraq are coming from.
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robtheman said:
Attacking Iran is the single worst thing that could happen right now. Hell, even immediately after we got Hussein it would have been a terrible idea. You're completely out of your mind.
I remember that Nextel18 is part Israeli? If so, that may be shaping some of his views on this... it certainly would be a wonderful world for Israel if we destroyed one of their biggest enemies for them. 👀
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Fully Israeli not partly, but regardless Iran is a threat to everyone not just to Israel. Israel can strike against Iran but rather have US and other countries do it so that they can prepare for wars all across the Israeli border.
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That makes sense. My girlfriend's dad is Israeli. He watches Fox News and cheers every time he hears about someone else in Iraq getting shot.
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I don’t watch Fox News. Where is your girlfriend’s dad from in Israel?
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Because he was born in Israel and moved to the United States. 🙄
My mom is English. I couldn't tell you what street she grew up on. Does that mean she's been lying to me about being English all my life?
My mom is English. I couldn't tell you what street she grew up on. Does that mean she's been lying to me about being English all my life?
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I think you are right, but I also think Israel did do the world a favor in the 80's when they took out Iraq's Osirak factory.
Also, it appears their recent attack on Syria was on nuclear related facilities (partly supported by North Korea if the information pans out to be true).
Also, it appears their recent attack on Syria was on nuclear related facilities (partly supported by North Korea if the information pans out to be true).
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John F. Kennedy
...even today, there is little value in ensuring the survival of our nation, if our traditions do not survive with it...
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Heres a read for you - replace the reference to Ft Sumter with 9/11, and replace the references to the South with terrorists.... sound familiar?
http://www.geocities.com/regkeith/lincoln4July1861.htm »
Maybe history if 100 years will regard GW as one of our greatest presidents - j/k -
http://www.geocities.com/regkeith/lincoln4July1861.htm »
Maybe history if 100 years will regard GW as one of our greatest presidents - j/k -
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I especially love this line:
"And having thus chosen our course, without guile and with pure purpose, let us renew our trust in God, and go forward without fear and with manly hearts."
http://www.geocities.com/regkeith/lincoln4July1861.htm »
"And having thus chosen our course, without guile and with pure purpose, let us renew our trust in God, and go forward without fear and with manly hearts."
http://www.geocities.com/regkeith/lincoln4July1861.htm »
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People that think like you terrify me. When was the last major terrorist attack on US soil before 9/11? The OKC bombing? Those are homegrown terrorists though so let's look at the WTC bombing in 1993. So that's...8 years without a major foreign terrorist attack. 6 if you want to count the OKC bombing. It's been 6 years since 9/11. We're not suppressing terrorism. We're right on track for another major attack sometime in the near future. In fact, Al Qaeda was recently in the news because they've regrouped and are stronger than ever.
You can't stop terrorism. There will always be someone somewhere that is pissed off enough at the system to lash out.
You can't stop terrorism. There will always be someone somewhere that is pissed off enough at the system to lash out.
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According to some testimony it takes a lot longer and plus when they get the court order those suspects are gone.
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gone were? they aren't tracking them? I would hope they are doing something since nothing is being done to check all the cargo that enters the US!
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🤣 Got a link?
Regardless, your understanding of how FISA works leaves much to be desired.
Regardless, your understanding of how FISA works leaves much to be desired.
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nextel18 said:
How is it unbelievable? You would rather have people’s rights violated then people being safe? Give me a way that the NSA and Government can easily obtain information without violating rights and without doing a court order because by the time they receive that court order, the suspect they are targeting will already have disappeared.
actually if they do it legally the lawenforcment can get warrants in only 1/2 hour to do what they need,as long as it is legal what they are doing.
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you come from a country that is required to do what they do and I agree with them. However until we have homicide bombers and attackers here in the US then don't use one attack to dismantle the constitution. And yes I lost a good friend in the towers that day. I am from NJ and allot of people I went to school with work in NYC.
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nextel18 said:
Whoa, I definitely did not read that whole thing. Perhaps a summation would have been better. I actually do not care what you have to say about my feelings towards keeping countries safe and if they have to violate a few laws and privacy then they can to support this country. They should modify the constitution also to add in some clauses. The NSA and Gov needs to do everything possible to protect us and I don’t care how far they must go to actually have that happening because I would rather have a few of my rights violated then me or my cousins/family end up dead and/or this country lose people and money.
"Anyone who is willing to give up his freedom in exchange for security deserves n...
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more people die every day in cars in the US then in Iraq. But you don't see any news coverage on that. Hell why not outlaw cars so no one dies in them.
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Thanks for the kind words I greatly appreciate it. So with your logic why do we actually fight wars then? Why do we have measures to stop all kinds of activities from bombing this country? Why do we have intelligence? Why do we put sanctions on countries like Iran for threatening us with nuclear power? Why do we spend hundreds of billions on this country’s army, navy and air force? We might as well do away everything and take care of our people in this country who are poor and do not have health insurance. Hey I guess maybe your family or yourself have never had anything bad happened to you but I and others have and we would rather be safe than sorry or else might as well elect a president that doesn’t care about this country and l...
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nextel18 said:...
Thanks for the kind words I greatly appreciate it. So with your logic why do we actually fight wars then? Why do we have measures to stop all kinds of activities from bombing this country? Why do we have intelligence? Why do we put sanctions on countries like Iran for threatening us with nuclear power? Why do we spend hundreds of billions on this country’s army, navy and air force? We might as well do away everything and take care of our people in this country who are poor and do not have health insurance. Hey I guess maybe your family or yourself have never had anything bad happened to you but I and others have and we would rather be safe than sorry or else might as well elect a president that doesnâ
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Ok nextel this country was founded on what we would call today terrorist we fought england because we wanted our freedom from a country that was ruled by a monarchy we made that nice document to prevent government's from trying to put us in a state that we fought so hard to get out of, that is why americans will fight and i will fight to keep it that way, that is what makes us the u.s.a. if you like it in Israel then go back have fun with you marshal law state that is not we want. this country was founded and we americans have died many times over to keep it that was it was founded. look at the civil war we fought our selves just to keep us a free country. I don't care what the terrorist do they will never do enough damage here to make me ch...
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Terrorism is not nearly as big a problem in the US as it is elsewhere in the world.
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In order to stop terrorism as a whole you need to look domestically to stop the terrorism at home and then go abroad.
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nextel18 said:
They have been doing a great job of killing us.
Uhh...ok. Well, home grown terrorists have NOT been doing a great job of killing us.
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McVeigh did...12 years ago. So how is that relevant to the changes that the Bush administration has made?
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All I was saying was domestic terrorism shouldn’t happen and if the ability were there to tap into the phones and to violate some rights those attacks would have been stopped.
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oh that is so full of you know what. You can't stop everyone. It is impossible. Even in a dictatorship! The more control you have the more the people will rebel! Its just like kids.
Anyone ever date a catholic school girl when they were teens or a priest daughter?
Anyone ever date a catholic school girl when they were teens or a priest daughter?
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Terrorism shouldn't happen, domestic or foreign. It's a shame you can't stop it.
McVeigh would not have been stopped with a tapped phone line. Everything was planned in his home. Get a warrant to search his house, and you could have stopped him.
McVeigh would not have been stopped with a tapped phone line. Everything was planned in his home. Get a warrant to search his house, and you could have stopped him.
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If everything was planned at his house, you don’t think that there could be some kind of suspect activity that police, neighbors, tapping the phones, would help ?
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How would it? Unless you put microphones in the phones to record everything that was said in the house, but that's a different story. Again, get a warrant.
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I am sure there are ways to see if someone is doing some kind of suspicious activity. From the house itself to the van and other equipment.
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yes I am sure there is want to have everyone watched you might need to double the worlds population its just not possible to watch everyone! Or in your world even listen to everyone!
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If I remember correctly, they were on a farm. Or out in the middle of nowhere. It wasn't cookie cutter housing that you'd see in a big city.
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I am sure there are ways to search. Could use some satellites. Alternatively, the security near the buildings could have been more secure.
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man you live in a different world.
How can you use satellites to watch inside a house. They still don't have x ray vision! And why spend millions and billions on security like you are talking about one something that only happened a few times in our entire countries history!
9/11 is different as it is a group of people wanting to attack us then just a few here and there!
Not to mention as much as you know about wireless you should know about satellites. They are either geo synch (can't move) or they can and it takes a while to get them in position and even then they can't stay over a area indef
How can you use satellites to watch inside a house. They still don't have x ray vision! And why spend millions and billions on security like you are talking about one something that only happened a few times in our entire countries history!
9/11 is different as it is a group of people wanting to attack us then just a few here and there!
Not to mention as much as you know about wireless you should know about satellites. They are either geo synch (can't move) or they can and it takes a while to get them in position and even then they can't stay over a area indef
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nextel18 said:
They have been doing a great job of killing us.
who,the soldiers in iraq and afghanistan who are dying for what. its not protecting us in any way. there dying at this point in time so that the people in our goverment can make money. and if people were smart enough on what is going on. some of those people in govenment could be charged with treason. bit the american people are the laughing stock of the world because they dont have an idea on what is going on, just be sheep and listen to the crooked politicians.
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nextel18 said:
Whoa, I definitely did not read that whole thing. Perhaps a summation would have been better. I actually do not care what you have to say about my feelings towards keeping countries safe and if they have to violate a few laws and privacy then they can to support this country. They should modify the constitution also to add in some clauses. The NSA and Gov needs to do everything possible to protect us and I don’t care how far they must go to actually have that happening because I would rather have a few of my rights violated then me or my cousins/family end up dead and/or this country lose people and money.
so would you like to be charged with something that you didnt do. and if they can k...
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Plooky I am starting to think you are a terrorist, with how concerned you are about telephone records you must be calling people that are known terrorists and dont want to get caught...
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Ad hominem attacks are fallacious argumentation.
Your statements could just as easily be used against our founding fathers for enshrining protections of people in the constitution.
Your statements could just as easily be used against our founding fathers for enshrining protections of people in the constitution.
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By your logic if someone was walking down the street in New York with a shotgun the police shouldnt stop him to ask questions... afterall per the consitution everyone is allowed to own a gun, so law enforcement should just ignore him because to stop him would be a voilation of his civil liberties, right?
Until the guy shoots the gun he hasnt done anything wrong.. so who cares that he is on his way to kill someone, until he does it he shouldnt be bothered by law enforcement. right?
Until the guy shoots the gun he hasnt done anything wrong.. so who cares that he is on his way to kill someone, until he does it he shouldnt be bothered by law enforcement. right?
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Your arguments exude common fallacies of logic and rhetoric.
All gun owners are criminals? Is that your contention?
All gun owners are criminals? Is that your contention?
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in that case nextel18 then why should we have this old and irrelevant constitution that gives us these civil liberties that you feel are a waste, and if civil liberties are getting in the way of "security, and protection" then abolish them,
i see every day that the public opinion supports abolishing civil liberties in favor of a more authoritarian government in the name of "security", in that case what is the problem with it, why should we operate under the facade of "freedom" if the american people dont want that, they want security, you cant have both, if you want security and protection, then you should also consent to more gov't control of your life we are moving more towards authoritarianism anyway, but history has shown that people...
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i see every day that the public opinion supports abolishing civil liberties in favor of a more authoritarian government in the name of "security", in that case what is the problem with it, why should we operate under the facade of "freedom" if the american people dont want that, they want security, you cant have both, if you want security and protection, then you should also consent to more gov't control of your life we are moving more towards authoritarianism anyway, but history has shown that people...
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I know when I worked at a corporate store it took a joint act between God and Congress to get this type of information released. This is very shocking to me!
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If you don't have anything to hide, what's the problem?
As far as I'm concerned, they can have all the records on me they want. They won't find anything interesting......
As far as I'm concerned, they can have all the records on me they want. They won't find anything interesting......
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https://www.phonescoop.com/carriers/forum.php?fm=m&f ... »
Substitute your name for Nextel18's.
Oh, and in case you find reading too difficult (like some others) I'll give you the summation.
Substitute your name for Nextel18's.
Oh, and in case you find reading too difficult (like some others) I'll give you the summation.
Tyranny, whether it arises under threat of foreign physical attack or under constant domestic authoritative scrutiny, is still tyranny.
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I apologize for not reading the entire thread before posting, but most of the time, and I'm sure you can agree they turn into nothing but huge wars over who has the biggest idea about what, and quite frankly.......it sickens me. So I just put down how I feel. It isn't an attack on anyone else and their position on the issue, but to me I don't see a problem.
Take what you want, I got nothing to hide. I'm not running any illegal operations, nor am I involved in any. A very close friend of mine use to work directly under Michael Chertoff at Homeland Security. She said all along that if someone out there needs to know her phone records in order to keep her name cleared and to keep her out of any scrutiny within the DHS team, so be it!
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Take what you want, I got nothing to hide. I'm not running any illegal operations, nor am I involved in any. A very close friend of mine use to work directly under Michael Chertoff at Homeland Security. She said all along that if someone out there needs to know her phone records in order to keep her name cleared and to keep her out of any scrutiny within the DHS team, so be it!
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"Spin it either way you want to...but in my eyes, if you ain't got nothing to hide, why are you hiding it?" That is my point also what I was trying to do but I guess others would rather have rights than life. I would rather be safe than sorry and if the government wants to tap our phones to keep us safe then so be it.
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You have 9/11 syndrome and need to get over it. The government will not keep you safe they had knowledge of the attack and did nothing so what good is it if they won't do anything. They don't check over 70% of all overseas containers! Should I go on? Phone records and violation of my rights will not help if they don't start doing the basics. Like checking everything that enters this country. They are doing what is easy to give people like you a false sense of security!
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Ayup!
The perfect example of fear being used to deceitfully obtain such information is library records.
The government claims to need access to those, because we all know the books you and I rent will show if we are or are not terrorist.
All the while, the real terrorist will simply buy the the books they want/need. Of course, the government insists they will have library cards.
So... who are they really monitoring?
Not only that, but the abuses of the Patriot Act have been already been documented.
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The perfect example of fear being used to deceitfully obtain such information is library records.
The government claims to need access to those, because we all know the books you and I rent will show if we are or are not terrorist.
All the while, the real terrorist will simply buy the the books they want/need. Of course, the government insists they will have library cards.
So... who are they really monitoring?
Not only that, but the abuses of the Patriot Act have been already been documented.
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FBI Employees Face Criminal Probe Over Patriot Act Abuse
Ryan Singel 07.12.07 | 2:00 AM
FBI personnel who used misleading emergency letters to acquire thousands of Americans' phone recor
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You guys get a taste of this forum jacking loon for a while.
TAKE IT TO THE LOUNGE!
TAKE IT TO THE LOUNGE!
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Ooooh, sorry. I thought this was a message board. I won't use it to talk any more.
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robtheman said:
Ooooh, sorry. I thought this was a message board. I won't use it to talk any more.
😁
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captainplooky said:
Keep on thinking the government is benevolent and won't abuse their power simply to protect you and your family if you like; just be sure you know that idea is false.
I'd have to agree... sooner or later someone is going to have the bright idea to abuse those powers/information, if they haven't already.
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nextel18 said:
"Spin it either way you want to...but in my eyes, if you ain't got nothing to hide, why are you hiding it?" That is my point also what I was trying to do but I guess others would rather have rights than life. I would rather be safe than sorry and if the government wants to tap our phones to keep us safe then so be it.
so you would have loved to live under hitler,until some one decided they didnt like you and set you up to look like you was doing something wrong.
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cilvzwagent said:...
I apologize for not reading the entire thread before posting, but most of the time, and I'm sure you can agree they turn into nothing but huge wars over who has the biggest idea about what, and quite frankly.......it sickens me. So I just put down how I feel. It isn't an attack on anyone else and their position on the issue, but to me I don't see a problem.
Take what you want, I got nothing to hide. I'm not running any illegal operations, nor am I involved in any. A very close friend of mine use to work directly under Michael Chertoff at Homeland Security. She said all along that if someone out there needs to know her phone records in order to keep her name cleared and to keep her out of any scru
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the whole point is what you are saying is illegal plain and simple. Coming from someone that thinks a cell phone contract is so binding but the constitution is not?
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I am not up on my constitutional law, but remind us all, what amendment says telecoms cant supply law enforcment about their customers?
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🙄
Not only is it a violation of the constitution, it's a violation of current laws on the books.
Just look at the argument the government has been trying to make:
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4th Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Not only is it a violation of the constitution, it's a violation of current laws on the books.
Just look at the argument the government has been trying to make:
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http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070504-bush-a ... »
The issue of whether any of this behavior was legal
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I love it we will violate a b c and d laws just to enforce x y and z laws. Its awesome! Can I ignore all traffic laws and only obey the felony ones?
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If anything, it explains one of the reasons Giuliani has 9/11 tourettes - people are still eating it up.
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I am sorry... but the 4th has nothing to do with this issue. Nothing belonging to you is involved. Customer records are the property of the business, not the customer.
try again
try again
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The very fact that you believe that speaks volumes in regards to the matter at hand and your position pertaining to it.
Would you espouse the same tripe in regards to medical records?
Would you espouse the same tripe in regards to medical records?
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primus said:
I am sorry... but the 4th has nothing to do with this issue. Nothing belonging to you is involved. Customer records are the property of the business, not the customer.
try again
customer records are customers,not business if it has any of you id info on it. like s.s. number or driver license.etc. this is state and or federal laws on id theft.
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cilvzwagent said:
If you don't have anything to hide, what's the problem?
As far as I'm concerned, they can have all the records on me they want. They won't find anything interesting......
and what if they want to make something up on you.
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then what is the point of "democracy" and civil liberties if people are willing to sacrifice their privacy and freedoms for security, i say form a new government since our constitution is irrelevant, if people want security at the price of freedom i will happily work towards a gov't that will give you and other American citizens just that.
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I seriously doubt that is the case.
Initially, all the telecos were denying even participating.
Hell they even claim by admitting they are participating they are hurting national security.
Initially, all the telecos were denying even participating.
Hell they even claim by admitting they are participating they are hurting national security.
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What are all these people going to say when there is another attack? And there is no doubt there will be. Just when and were and how big!
I will tell you it will go either one of two ways. They want the govt to have more power (god help us) or they will see no matter what they do they can't stop it!
I am all for increase of security like at airports and such but if they checked all cargo and people entering then what else is there to check? They know who is here and what has entered. And if they need data they get a court order. The Fisa court can give a warrant within hours if there is a real reason to get it!
I will tell you it will go either one of two ways. They want the govt to have more power (god help us) or they will see no matter what they do they can't stop it!
I am all for increase of security like at airports and such but if they checked all cargo and people entering then what else is there to check? They know who is here and what has entered. And if they need data they get a court order. The Fisa court can give a warrant within hours if there is a real reason to get it!
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hmm who in the military will go along with this? If anything it will lead to military rule if ever tried!
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https://www.phonescoop.com/forums/forum.php?fm=m&ff= ... »
These aren't conspiracy theories either. Even politicians are apparently afraid of Bush declaring martial law using NSPD-51 and HSPD-20.
Ralph Nader discuses it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIO-tCPSfHA »
Additionally, former members of the Regan administration have voiced their concern as well:
https://www.phonescoop.com/forums/forum.php?fm=m&ff= ... »
These aren't conspiracy theories either. Even politicians are apparently afraid of Bush declaring martial law using NSPD-51 and HSPD-20.
Ralph Nader discuses it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIO-tCPSfHA »
Additionally, former members of the Regan administration have voiced their concern as well:
https://www.phonescoop.com/forums/forum.php?fm=m&ff= ... »
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didn't say it was. Just as I said who will go along with it. He can declare but will the generals back him? I would hope not!
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That I don't know, I would hope not, but considering Bush's record of cronyism it wouldn't be surprising. Hopefully the loyal to Bush are outnumbered by the loyal to the country.
I think the police are more likely to initially enforce such measures due to the fact that they come up against citizens in their daily duties, as opposed to your typical soldier.
I just can't help but wonder if we actually are going to have an election after the next attack (which I believe will happen before the election).
Afterall, one of the first things Giuliani wanted to do was postpone the mayoral elections after 9/11 but thankfully Governor Pataki refused to allow that to happen.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/21/us/politics/21giul ... »
I think the police are more likely to initially enforce such measures due to the fact that they come up against citizens in their daily duties, as opposed to your typical soldier.
I just can't help but wonder if we actually are going to have an election after the next attack (which I believe will happen before the election).
Afterall, one of the first things Giuliani wanted to do was postpone the mayoral elections after 9/11 but thankfully Governor Pataki refused to allow that to happen.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/21/us/politics/21giul ... »
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yeah true. The police love power and will go along with it but martial law is run by the military not the police. they help but have no authority on most major matters. Their will be an election because the supreme court will not allow their not to be even if their is a larger attack then 9/11 days before the election!
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i think u underestimate how powerless the surpreme court is now, b/c it is filled with bush cronies, they would give a proposal to suspend elections the green light. congress is irrelevant now, the dems cant change anything.
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The funny thing is that I dont think plooky can tell the differance between the two. I think he is so far gone he thinks the "data" that was shared was transcripts of every phone call that took place. I have little doubt that he thinks the government has someone listening in on every call everyone in the US makes and transcribing it 🙄
If you read all his posts he thinks the data that was turned over from these emergency requests wasnt even requested... So to him an "emergency request" isnt a request, afterall the telcos are all psychic and just hand over information to law enforcement when there is an emergency going on, and the investigation that is going on has nothing to do with what they say is being investigated, they are re...
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If you read all his posts he thinks the data that was turned over from these emergency requests wasnt even requested... So to him an "emergency request" isnt a request, afterall the telcos are all psychic and just hand over information to law enforcement when there is an emergency going on, and the investigation that is going on has nothing to do with what they say is being investigated, they are re...
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Henry Kissinger, Bilderberger Conference in Evians, France, 1991
Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow they will be grateful!
This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence.
It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown.
When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government."
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I usually end every single call I make with "f*ck you Bush and every other career politician for sticking it to us for this long and screw everyone who turns a blind eye" and no one has said anything yet.
🤣
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Since some of you are very unclear about it.
The government getting your phone records without a court order is a federal crime. It is in direct violation of the constitution (you know, that piece of toilet paper we are supposed to live by).
If they want to be able to do this, they should act like men and try to ammend the constitution. If there is a flaw in it, bring it to our attention, we'll vote on it and see where it goes. This is called Democracy. Not gonna happen, I know.
No, they are running around going to secret courts, and basically doing anything they can to keep from being accountable. They won't say anything under oath, and classify everything so we have no idea what is going on.
So, my question to those who don't ...
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The government getting your phone records without a court order is a federal crime. It is in direct violation of the constitution (you know, that piece of toilet paper we are supposed to live by).
If they want to be able to do this, they should act like men and try to ammend the constitution. If there is a flaw in it, bring it to our attention, we'll vote on it and see where it goes. This is called Democracy. Not gonna happen, I know.
No, they are running around going to secret courts, and basically doing anything they can to keep from being accountable. They won't say anything under oath, and classify everything so we have no idea what is going on.
So, my question to those who don't ...
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as Ben Franklin put it so eloquently over 200 years ago, "He who would sacrifice liberty in the name of security deserves neither." I can't imagine what our nation's founders would think of what we have become...from federal income tax (which was an amendment that was supposed to be temporary) to the blatant violations of the 9th and 10th amendments by the federal government on a near constant basis...what has our country become? some would argue that these changes have made us a great world power...i would argue that instead of sacrificing our freedoms and god given rights as human beings to be "number one" i would take "second place" so long as the ideals of our country were preserved. unfortunately greed and captialism (which seem to run ...
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thom06 said:...
as Ben Franklin put it so eloquently over 200 years ago, "He who would sacrifice liberty in the name of security deserves neither." I can't imagine what our nation's founders would think of what we have become...from federal income tax (which was an amendment that was supposed to be temporary) to the blatant violations of the 9th and 10th amendments by the federal government on a near constant basis...what has our country become? some would argue that these changes have made us a great world power...i would argue that instead of sacrificing our freedoms and god given rights as human beings to be "number one" i would take "second place" so long as the ideals of our country were preserved. unfortunately greed a
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hehe, that reminds me of the South Park with John Edwards ;) and yeah, I think plooky would have beat John if he had been nominated.
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How about this thread goes to a Verizon Communications Forum. This article has to do with Verizon Comm not Verizon Wireless. Yes Verizon Corp does own a large share of Verizon Wireless but this article has to do with Verizon Communications NOT VERIZON WIRELESS.
Alex
Alex
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Not sure if this was already said... too many replies to read...
BUT.....
You know this is Verizon Communications.. NOT VzW... They are referring to landline services...
So does this topic even belong under Verizon Wireless' Forums... ???? hmmmm
🙂
BUT.....
You know this is Verizon Communications.. NOT VzW... They are referring to landline services...
So does this topic even belong under Verizon Wireless' Forums... ???? hmmmm
🙂
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Plooky thinks that if one company owns a majority share of another that means they are the same company.. so for example, to him Taco Bell and Pepsi are both run the exact same way and actions taken by one must also have been taken by the other... I wonder if he thinks there are Taco Vending machines like Pepsi vending machines...
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