AvgJoe said:
Yeah Like Canada and Europe....Wait for stage i cancer to become stage 3 before your first appointment? You mean like that?


I'd say forget new car payments and fluff and buy heath care instead. You have do a choice. There will never be universal socialized medicine in this country. Are YOU willing to have another 25% in withholding in your pay check?

Either you give it to the government or pay Blue Cross.......I'll take Blue Cross Thank You.

well, for those of us in the middle class, having a deductible more than our monthly pay is a bit extreme. at&t used to offer one of the best health care packages and now it's not affordable. we have no co pay and no prescription plan until we hit t...
(continues)

Avgjoe only supports companies who mistreat their employees don't get mad at him its who he is. Sadly enough, a corporations main responsibility is to maximize profitibility to its share holders and if that means cutting your healthcare then so be it. Corporations are granted way too many rights by governing powers.

yep. i just hope at&t realizes what they are doing before they end up like at&t circa 1984, 2002 and 2005.

Sigma1570 said:
Corporations are granted way too many rights by governing powers.

As well as their shareholders unfortunately.

captainplooky said:

Sigma1570 said:
Corporations are granted way too many rights by governing powers.

As well as their shareholders unfortunately.

Lest you forget the SHAREHOLDERS OWN the company and as owners can decide what to do with company profits, Thats a free society for you.

Te Peoples Republic of China limits corporations rights. Perhaps you would like to move there.
or you could always join a union and pay them to whine for you.

AvgJoe said:
Te Peoples Republic of China limits corporations rights. Perhaps you would like to move there.

🤣

Haven't you learned by now that play from the neocon handbook doesn't work.

Are you gonna start calling me unpatriotic next - oh wait - you essentially already are.

Quick! Remind me about 9/11.

I always wonder who the remaining 32% are...

captainplooky said:

AvgJoe said:
Te Peoples Republic of China limits corporations rights. Perhaps you would like to move there.

🤣

Haven't you learned by now that play from the neocon handbook doesn't work.

Are you gonna start calling me unpatriotic next - oh wait - you essentially already are.

Quick! Remind me about 9/11.

I always wonder who the remaining 32% are...

Too bad it's the truth. YOu will never get heath care free. No one is entitled to free anything. Everyone is entitled to freedom of choice.

Make your choice. Buy a new car and screw up your credit if you get sick or buy a used car and pay for catastrophic health insurance, Suck up the m...
(continues)

Damn 😳

And I thought my company's benefits sucked. You might want to look for an independent provider. I know we have that option and our company gives us the base amount that they would contribute to the current plan which is about $800 annually.

crackberry said:
sorry but any company boasting about record breaking profit shouldn't be treating their employees that way.

The massive salary compensation packages for executives don't help either.

High deductible heath insurances is the smart choice. INSURANCE is to prevent FINANCIAL DISASTER not minor inconvenience.

When I see people going to the doctor for colds I have to laugh when they complain about the cost.

WE have a $5000 deductible it costs $160 a month for the wife. Thats cheap insurance against a major catastrophe. When she got a touch of breast cancer and $95,000 later we paid only $8,000 I consider that more than adequate coverage.In fact she got the best treatment because we had 100% coverage after the deductible was met. High deductibles are the best way to go with all insurances.Peole insure vs $400 losses yet don't insure themselves vs $100,000 loses. Amazing.

People are obese then want someone else to p...
(continues)

YOu need to get used to paying for BASIC medical care like you buy bread. People feel medical care is an entitlement. It isn't.IT's a service NOT A RIGHT. There is NOTHING in the Constitution that says we have a right to free health care, Especially for those who drink,smoke ,drop extasy and smoke dope, eat fast foods,,,,,,,,,,


Besides its already free as most hospitals cannot turn you away,

yes. i have paid. i didn't say i wanted it free, just affordable. and the point i was making is that now at&t is so profitable and they are bragging about how well they did, why are they giving their employees crap? the key to a successful business is happy employees.

crackberry said:
yes. i have paid. i didn't say i wanted it free, just affordable. and the point i was making is that now at&t is so profitable and they are bragging about how well they did, why are they giving their employees crap? the key to a successful business is happy employees.

Find another job then. If all ATT employees felt like you do they would quit and ATT would HAVE to raise incentives.

The best way to get a raise is to spend less. I don't think a $400 car payment is affordable to me But $250 a month for $5000 deductible health care most definitely is.

Its a screwed up value system. People want things they can show off. But won't spend for those things other cannot ooh and aah over.. O...
(continues)

AvgJoe said:
There is NOTHING in the Constitution that says we have a right to free health care...

You sure?

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Doesn't health care promote one's general welfare?

Perhaps you define it differently. Here's what I got:

Oxford Dictionary
welfare

• noun 1 the health, happiness, and fortunes of a person or group.

...
(continues)

POOKEY- FOR THE LOVE OF GOD GET A JOB WITH GOOD INSURANCE 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

captainplooky said:

AvgJoe said:
There is NOTHING in the Constitution that says we have a right to free health care...

You sure?

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Doesn't health care promote one's general welfare?

Perhaps you define it differently. Here's what I got:

Oxford Dictionary
welfare

• noun 1 the health, happin

...
(continues)

Score one for anecdotal evidence and observational selection. Those aren't common logical fallacies at all.

These doctors are only money grubbing evil bastards, thank goodness they have to seek approval for medical treatments they deem necessary from insurance call centers whose sole purpose is to save the insurance companies money.

I agree, we should continue paying more individually for health care than any other country in the industrialized world. The fact that we are paying more for less care only makes it that much better.

Ra Ra USA! Ra Ra USA!

/Sarcasm, explained for AvgJoe, cause he probably agrees.

AvgJoe said:
Yeah Like Canada and Europe....Wait for stage i cancer to become stage 3 before your first appointment? You mean like that?

You are so incorrect with this statement. You will have a better chance of not receiving what you need here in the states regarding health issues than having to wait for your cancer to advance to a more severe stage while waiting for your socialized medicine. That is just misinformation given out by those who stand to lose out. All the middle men in health care stand to lose out so they will say anything and from the looks of it, YOU WILL BELIEVE ANYTHING that they spew out no matter how much truth is involved. But considering your comment about not caring about the co...
(continues)

Show mw one thing the government controls that is run lean and mean and with the customer first?

Go ahead.....Government does not have the INCENTIVE to make it easy for those who need them. The DMV is a great example. I don't believe what they spew out all I know are three peole who died waiting for health care in Canada becasue they could not get immediate help When the want immediate help where do they go?

AMERICAN doctors and hospitals in Detroit and other border towns, You are buying into becoming dependent on the government who does nothing right and certainly not cheap.

Over regulate and you will lose your job. Bet on it. Tax the corporations and gues what? They will make the SAME profits and pass the added expense to you. ...
(continues)

I am not becoming dependent on anyone. Please read what I said again. I stated that a total socialized system was not in this country's overall interests. I stated that the government should set something up for those who might fall between the cracks of our current system. The only person who is buying into the propaganda from either side is you. You grossly over-exaggerated your point about not being able to see a doctor until your cancer moves up 2 stages. You are false and if you go research you will find that you are more likely not to receive the health care (preventive or whatever) here in the states than in say France, Spain, or even Cuba for that matter. I am all for capitalism but the current system (HMO's and Medical Middle...
(continues)

ygbhen said:
I am not becoming dependent on anyone. Please read what I said again. I stated that a total socialized system was not in this country's overall interests. I stated that the government should set something up for those who might fall between the cracks of our current system. The only person who is buying into the propaganda from either side is you. You grossly over-exaggerated your point about not being able to see a doctor until your cancer moves up 2 stages. You are false and if you go research you will find that you are more likely not to receive the health care (preventive or whatever) here in the states than in say France, Spain, or even Cuba for that matter. I am all for capitalism but the current

...
(continues)

Sounds like you were lucky, but denying the fact that patients are denied medically necessary services in a for profit system for the sole purpose of ensuring profit recklessly ignores and fails to recognize how the system truly works.

Inhabitants of cubicle farms are not doctors.

Here's one of the more recent examples - unfortunately example like these are quite commonplace.

Teen dies after insurance nixes transplant funds
David Edwards
Published: Friday December 21, 2007

A 17-year old died just hours after her health insurance company reversed its decision not to pay for a liver transplant that doctors said the girl needed.

Nataline Sarkisyan died Thursday night at about 6 p.m. at University o

...
(continues)

captainplooky said:
Sounds like you were lucky, but denying the fact that patients are denied medically necessary services in a for profit system for the sole purpose of ensuring profit recklessly ignores and fails to recognize how the system truly works.

Inhabitants of cubicle farms are not doctors.

Here's one of the more recent examples - unfortunately example like these are quite commonplace.

Teen dies after insurance nixes transplant funds
David Edwards
Published: Friday December 21, 2007

A 17-year old died just hours after her health insurance company reversed its decision not to pay for a liver transplant that doctors said the girl needed.

Nataline Sarkisyan died Thursd

...
(continues)

AvgJoe said:
No sounds like she was UNLUCKY. My situation is far more common then those. Thats why you read of them. They are unusual and make great headlines.

...

Her situation is terrible but not as common as one would think. Otherwise we would be reading of far more events like that. It makes for good political fodder.

If only this twas so. Apparently you haven't seen the recent whistleblower testimony to Congress regarding the deliberate and systematic denial of claims for the sole purpose of increasing profit by keeping costs low - ranging from healh to home (but but Katrina happened so long ago it's not worth remembering right?).

Let me ask you this question in another way as we obviously...
(continues)

captainplooky said:

AvgJoe said:
No sounds like she was UNLUCKY. My situation is far more common then those. Thats why you read of them. They are unusual and make great headlines.

...

Her situation is terrible but not as common as one would think. Otherwise we would be reading of far more events like that. It makes for good political fodder.

If only this twas so. Apparently you haven't seen the recent whistleblower testimony to Congress regarding the deliberate and systematic denial of claims for the sole purpose of increasing profit by keeping costs low - ranging from healh to home (but but Katrina happened so long ago it's not worth remembering right?).

Let me ask you this

...
(continues)

AvgJoe said:
I can and will only judge by my OWN experience. Not what others CLAIM.

What a strange and fantastical world you must live in...seeing flying steel dragons aloft in the air, knowing that you could be killed with magical boom sticks that spit the vengeance of a god, and being forever fearful of the wizards who study numerology and the elemental forces.

🤣

Joe- I am with you, my wife had cervical cancer and was able to beat it in part because of the great health care we have. On the other hand I have a friend who has his own construction and is on Medicaid and spent 5 years in and out only to find her appendix was causing the issues and the lack of doing an enzyme test kept it going that long. One hysterectomy, several minor surgeries and an appendectomy later she is finally feeling normal again and 600k deep in bills because nobody would authorize and enzyme test because of insurance costs to Medicaid. 😳

bigdaddyjay said:
Joe- I am with you, my wife had cervical cancer and was able to beat it in part because of the great health care we have. On the other hand I have a friend who has his own construction and is on Medicaid and spent 5 years in and out only to find her appendix was causing the issues and the lack of doing an enzyme test kept it going that long. One hysterectomy, several minor surgeries and an appendectomy later she is finally feeling normal again and 600k deep in bills because nobody would authorize and enzyme test because of insurance costs to Medicaid. 😳

My father is in the Hospital as of last Saturday diagnosed with Lukemia AFTER he was taken there by ambulance with 104 fever, OF course ...
(continues)

AvgJoe said:
I don't believe what they spew out all I know are three peole who died waiting for health care in Canada becasue they could not get immediate help When the want immediate help where do they go?

1. Argument from adverse consequences (putting pressure on the decision maker by pointing out dire consequences of an "unfavourable" decision).
2. Observational selection
3. Non sequitur - "it does not follow" - the logic falls down.
4. Excluded middle - considering only the two extremes in a range of possibilities (making the "other side" look worse than it really is).
5. Straw man - caricaturing (or stereotyping) a position to make it easier to attack..

There are p...
(continues)

captainplooky said:


Are you implying the United States is not capable of implementing a system that utilizes aspects of various systems that do work into our own?

AvgJoe said:
Over regulate and you will lose your job. Bet on it.

Under regulate and you lose your home, and foot the bill for other's mistakes. Bet on it.

I am most definitely implying the Government is NOT capable of implementing ANY system that utilizes aspects of various systems that do work into our own

If you have any doubt look at the private contracting system used in the military to provide what the military provided for them selves at one time....Check ouut the issues with US implemented medi...
(continues)

AvgJoe said:
If you have any doubt look at the private contracting system used in the military to provide what the military provided for them selves at one time....Check ouut the issues with US implemented medical care called the VA.HAve you even been to a VA hospital? I have.

I imagine you must have had a terrible time playing connect the dots as a child eh?

Having no bid contracts and no accountability with concern to military contracts is the stance and perpetrated at the behest of the Bush administration (which also has no accountability).

As for the VA hospitals, that also can fall into the lap of Bush who champions the line "Support our troops" while at the same time cutting funding to these ho...
(continues)

captainplooky said:

AvgJoe said:
If you have any doubt look at the private contracting system used in the military to provide what the military provided for them selves at one time....Check ouut the issues with US implemented medical care called the VA.HAve you even been to a VA hospital? I have.

I imagine you must have had a terrible time playing connect the dots as a child eh?

Having no bid contracts and no accountability with concern to military contracts is the stance and perpetrated at the behest of the Bush administration (which also has no accountability).

As for the VA hospitals, that also can fall into the lap of Bush who champions the line "Support our troops" while at t

...
(continues)

I think there is something incredibly wrong and perverse when contractors from Haliburton are receiving better salaries and care for the same services, when the brave men and women of our Armed Services are not.

When you go to war with the army you have, and not the army you want; You'd better be damn sure there is a good reason to go to war in the first place. I will concede that mistakes can be made, but do not believe that to be our current case.

Therefore - equally as important, if not more important, is to reward and support those who do the work and not just use them as talking points.

You really need to pick up a book now and then and quit listening to Jane Fonda.

Funny stuff. I'd be willing ...
(continues)

My stepbrother and step sisters aunt was once married to Jane Fonda's father 😳

bigdaddyjay said:
My stepbrother and step sisters aunt was once married to Jane Fonda's father 😳

Shirlee Mae Adams was the wife I am talking about, Henry was a Republican but his daughter smoked too much hooch and ended up pissing off numerous Vietnam vets such as my father 😳 My father 😳

Plooky, I am willing to bet you read more in the last month than avejoe read in his whole life ;)
I have talked to elementary school kids that know more than avejoe does.

primus said:
Plooky, I am willing to bet you read more in the last month than avejoe read in his whole life ;)
I have talked to elementary school kids that know more than avejoe does.

Im betting you hang out with them.....

Yes, I sometimes hang out with my family with whom some nieces and nephews are in elementary school... oh wait, I forgot, you are anti-family.

primus said:
Yes, I sometimes hang out with my family with whom some nieces and nephews are in elementary school... oh wait, I forgot, you are anti-family.

You misunderstood (as usual) I meant ALL of your friends are Elementary school types. That's the way you come across sometimes with your "facts" and assumptions.

Im pro family, anti liberal. Big difference.You seem to be a prime example and result of our Union based liberal educational system.

I will allow for that in your statements.

YOu apparently cannot concieve of the idea of PUBLIC SERVICE. I DID MY 6 Years. Did you? I seriously doubt it. Your idea of serving your country is paying taxes. IF you worked for HAliburton and were put in that situation Im sure you would want big money as well. Those contractors are earning a living.

If you served you would realize in order to have all the services perfomed by servicemen there would have to be a draft..because people like you are too self involved to ever think of giving up a few years of your life to serve your country.SO we have to pay far more to those who have to do the cooking because service men are needed more in the field.

You just moan about the big bad USA and sincerly believe you are smarter then those w...
(continues)

Let me ask this to thep proponents of Universal Healthcare. How do you plan to pay for it? There are two ways to pay for it. Either Increase taxes or cut spending somewhere else. How about we cut Education Spending, Defense Spending? Research for Cancer, AIDS, get rid of that also.

Anyone that believes that Healthcare would be "free" is totally naive.

Do I think there is a healtcare problem in the U.S.? Yea, especially in the small business sector. Does reform need to happen? Probably. But Universal healthcare would not be free and would not cheap.

gibson714 said:
Let me ask this to thep proponents of Universal Healthcare. How do you plan to pay for it? There are two ways to pay for it. Either Increase taxes or cut spending somewhere else. How about we cut Education Spending, Defense Spending? Research for Cancer, AIDS, get rid of that also.

Anyone that believes that Healthcare would be "free" is totally naive.

Do I think there is a healtcare problem in the U.S.? Yea, especially in the small business sector. Does reform need to happen? Probably. But Universal healthcare would not be free and would not cheap.

They have no clue. No answers. Just demands and consider it a Constitutional right...LOL

Would love to see that one tested.

yeah, exactly. im glad there are some conservative thinkers on here!

and you forgot to mention me waiting longer in my doctors office to get an rx for the flu when there are 20 people in front of me because their nose is stuffed up.

nickwright said:
yeah, exactly. im glad there are some conservative thinkers on here!

and you forgot to mention me waiting longer in my doctors office to get an rx for the flu when there are 20 people in front of me because their nose is stuffed up.

THATS why I support $3000 min deductibles on all heath care. Keep all the "Sneezers" out of the system. IF you can afford a $15,000 car and pay for it. You can afford to pay up to $3000 for your own heath care.

Over 47 million American fall into your "sneezers" category - many of which are families and children.

Not to mention you apparently fail to understand the poverty line and how the number of those in poverty is only continuing to grow.

captainplooky said:
Over 47 million American fall into your "sneezers" category - many of which are families and children.

Not to mention you apparently fail to understand the poverty line and how the number of those in poverty is only continuing to grow.

Who's fault is that? Everyday 20 somethings are starting successful companies and hiring other 20 somethings and making a good living. Everyday 20 somethings are smoking dope and hanging out in Dad and Moms house begging to borrow the car. Both attended the same schools and had the same opportunities. I know both types from my graduating class.

Poor kids succeed. Rich kids don't Poor kids don't succeed, Rich kids do. IT's their choice.
There is no...
(continues)

captainplooky said:
Over 47 million American fall into your "sneezers" category - many of which are families and children.

Not to mention you apparently fail to understand the poverty line and how the number of those in poverty is only continuing to grow.

Not to mention how many that buy a car they can't afford or buy 5,000 rims for the car they can't afford. Poverty exist because people are generally uneducated and lazy or stupid with their money.

That actually sounds a bit stereotypical, and dare I say, racist.

I'm not saying that there are not people who make poor choices in regards to what they try to consume versus what they can afford.

Stereotyping them all as you are I believe to be a fallacy.

Nice spin Hillary but actually it is not racially motivated even though I am a redneck. When you see a 1,000 car with 5,000 rims there is an issue. I have a neighbor that bought next to my house and they are having money issues and might foreclose, they bought a brand new 2006 escalade when they moved in and put 6k worth of rims and tires and have to keep it in the garage to avoid the Repo man. Oh, and they bought the biggest house the builder offered as well! Oh, and they are Caucasian.

bigdaddyjay said:
Nice spin Hillary but actually it is not racially motivated even though I am a redneck. When you see a 1,000 car with 5,000 rims there is an issue. I have a neighbor that bought next to my house and they are having money issues and might foreclose, they bought a brand new 2006 escalade when they moved in and put 6k worth of rims and tires and have to keep it in the garage to avoid the Repo man. Oh, and they bought the biggest house the builder offered as well! Oh, and they are Caucasian.

Don't get me started Just take a drive though "impoverished" areas. The rims are worth more then my whole car! Yeah it may be racial but that still does not make it right. Everyone has the same opportunit...
(continues)

Ha, that reminds me of the Chris Rock Comedy deal where he talked about his friend getting 20's on his toaster.

Liberals are the definition of stereotyping.It's a freak of nature is a black man is successful. Not representative of black people in general due to opposition by the government. Liberals KEEP the weak weak for their own purposes. They don't force people to take care of themselves.

They do not even believe people CAN do for themselves. There are excuses after excuses why people cannot fend for themselves.

They believe Others should do for them what they refuse to do for themselves. The balme others for their failures. Then they want others to pay for the same.

They freely quote and relay one terrible event as if it's the universal condition. They believe Dinosaurs should have never become extinct. They believe no one has a right...
(continues)

Very True, the liberals keep the flock in check and leave the non followers to the wolves.

I agree, we should continue paying more individually for health care than any other country in the industrialized world. The fact that we are paying more for less care and over 47 million people without coverage (not tax drain there) only makes it that much better

Ra Ra USA! Ra Ra USA!

Well maybe if americans weren't so fat and lazy then we wouldn't have to pay higher costs for healthcare.

This may fly over some of your heads but when people are sick more often and visit the hospitals more often that costs Employers money. So when you have the obese, smokers,drinkers etc going to the doctor all the time because their immune systems cannot handle common illness then of course employers are going to raise cost of insurance. Why should someone have to pay for your bad choices?

I can't believe that so many people believe it is the governments job to live your life for you and to take care of you. Let's just convert to socialism so we are all equal and lets eliminate the competitive, independant spirit that has made Amer...
(continues)

At the rate of healthcare inflation is going if the government doesnt step in there is going to be a bigger problem than if they do.

There is nothing that controls how much doctors and hospitals charge for their services except the insurance companies and when insurance companies limit how much they pay because the doctors charge too much, people complain about it.

Insurance companies limit what thye pay based on a system of what is "reasonable and customary" this is based on the prevalnt charges in the area for the service being performed. Sometimes doctors offices charge higher than normal for a serivce just to find out what the reasonable and customary rate is so they can raise their normal charge to that price, and thus next t...
(continues)

Maybe if jagoffs like John Edwards didn't bring lawsuits back and help sue their clients way to untold millions our doctors could afford malpractice insurance. Some doctors are paying 5 figures a month 😳

Really interesting thread. Just to stoke the fire a bit, but the rise in insurance is due to the rise in Malpractice insurance that all doctors must pay. This protection is factored in to the cost of a visit or service rendered and passed to the consumer. The insurance companies up what they charge their customers which in turn causes companies like ATT and others to increase the charges in health care to their employees. If you want to decrease the cost in health care then the fraud and frivolous lawsuits must decrease in order for the insurance companies to reduce their risk in insuring you as an employee.
The Universal Health care is a great idea, but most major companies complain about giving health care to their employees, and now ...
(continues)

Funny you bring up malpractice. John Edwards specialized in winning major medical malpractice cases and even won against the Red Cross three times. Hillary, yep she was a lawyer as well. Barack Hussein Obama, yep he was a civil right lawyer.
Do we really want a bunch of lawyers running this country trying to pass the costs across the board and raising taxes instead of holding people accountable for their own ignorrance and stupidity? I feel sorry for nobody because I was an idiot without insurance at one time in my life and I was the idiot that didn't want to go to college so that I could have fun. I went back to college, got a job with great health insurance and look out for my families best interests. What a concept 😳 😳
People love...
(continues)

Amen. You do know how to tell if a lawyer is lyin? Their lip are moving. Think of that when you watch the Dems speak. Not one of them has held a job other then public service/law. No leadership, no ethics, and an elitist attitude. If I find out that any of the Dem 3 have had a real job (classified as one in which physical or mental stress is a daily occurance) then my support for them is higher. Military service is also important so that the Commander in Chief has the leadership and the acccumen to understand, respect, and lead the best fighting force in the world.

thats right, because trying to let the UN keep peace in the world just isn't going to happen!

if some country becomes under control of some mad-man, the UN will do nothing, then the entire world will look upon to the US and say "why aren't you doing anything".

the united states is the world police, so keeping the entire world at peace needs a strong leader to do so.

i would rather it be none of our business and let america keep to herself unless threatened, but with intercontinental trade, stocks, business etc. thats just not going to happen.

so like it or not, the UN is pointless except putting blue helmets on US and UK soldiers.

I agree with you on the UN. How can there ever be any kind of decisive action when you have a security council of countries who all ONLY look out for their best interests and the world's. Every country that sits on that council has used their position to further their own agenda, sometimes good but most times bad. This has weakened an already flawed group to irrelevance!

This is on both sides of the aisle! I like how your two (republican & democrats) beat each other up when for the most part, you are all the same. Thanks goodness that independents decide most elections these days.

🙄
🤣

bwag717 said:
No leadership, no ethics, and an elitist attitude.

This can be equally applied to many of the current Republican candidates - with but one exception I can think of offhand.

Denying we currently have an unsustainable number of troops required for the war effort, beating the drum for another unprovoked attack, and failing to recognize the causes for conflict in the first place is not the leadership I want - as it would be nothing more than a continuance of our current administration, but with a different face perpetrating the current fearmongering we have come to expect.

Not to mention the utter hypocrisy and lack of understanding demonstrated when one examines their ...
(continues)

McCain has no leadership? Pookey, seriously! Who else in Washington can work with Ted Kennedy and still get the backing of the Republican party?

What kills me is America is ready to go back to the Clinton days where a cheating scumbag sat on his butt and inherited what could be argued as the best opportunity to turn around the economics of a country with minimal effort. What did big Bill do? He scaled back our military citing the end of the Cold War era and weakened our military. He ignored the terrorist threats in order to save money and basically balanced the budget to a surplus yet never tried to pass a savings on to his beloved middle to lower class.

Keep waiving the Peace flag and hitting the hooch Plooky, socialism is just arou...
(continues)

Wow - talk about selective observation.

bigdaddyjay said:
McCain has no leadership? Pookey, seriously! Who else in Washington can work with Ted Kennedy and still get the backing of the Republican party?

Fellow candidates as well as a large portion of the party are still lambasting McCain for his immigration amnesty plan and the fact that he worked with Ted Kennedy and has been a frequent talking point used to demonize McCain with the Republican base.

bigdaddyjay said:
McCain has no leadership? Pookey, seriously! Who else in Washington can work with Ted Kennedy and still get the backing of the Republican party?

What kills me is America is ready to go back to the Clinton days wh

...
(continues)

McCain will change things, he is the only Republican candidate that stands a chance and there isn't a Democrat that stands a chance. Here is a fun link, also look up MENA airport in Arkansas, maybe that will show I am not one sided as it has ties to both parties.

http://www.startinglinks.net/monicalewinsky/bodycoun ... »

McCain is still fighting the Vietnam War in many ways.

Let's examine some his statements from the debates.

He continues to repeat that the soldiers tell him "Let us win", yet Dr. Ron Paul has the highest contributions from active service members when compared to him and all the other Republican candidates.

McCain, when speaking about trading with the Middle East, quipped that he wasn't interested in trading with al qaeda, and all they had to trade was burkas. Funny thing is, the entire Middle East does not compromise al qaeda. Does it?

McCain denied having said that he is essentially ignorant when it comes to the economy - yet it is clearly documented several times. While at the same time he proudly talks about serving as the ...
(continues)

Pookey- Every candidate has put their foot in their mouth since the primary's started.

I won't take anything away from Ron Paul other than the possible newsletters he wrote with negative comments about race but he has already ran as an independent and lost. Ron Paul will not get the backing of the voters. This thing will pan out to be Obama vs. McCain.

captainplooky said:
I agree, we should continue paying more individually for health care than any other country in the industrialized world. The fact that we are paying more for less care and over 47 million people without coverage (not tax drain there) only makes it that much better

Ra Ra USA! Ra Ra USA!

You must be sitting around smoking hooch and listening to John Lennon records with you laid off union auto worker uncle 😳

Any comments of substance, or are you not able to form a response to the points I raised other than petty insults?

Pooky- Look at the tax rate in a majority of countries that have a universal healthcare system and you will be chocked 😳 😳 I for one do not feel that I should pay more taxes so lazy, uneducated scumbags in this country can go to the doctor. Seriously Pooky, what are you smoking here????

bigdaddyjay said:
Seriously Pooky, what are you smoking here????

Apparently not the propaganda pipe you seem to be such a big fan of.

You seem to be like Bill my friend. Smoking but never inhaling 😳

Score one for continued partisan rhetoric that serves no purpose other than to insult, divide and conquer?

captainplooky said:

bigdaddyjay said:
Seriously Pooky, what are you smoking here????

Apparently not the propaganda pipe you seem to be such a big fan of.

PROPAGANDA? Do some research into factual data on tax rates in Canada and Europe. You will realize much to your dismay NO ONE HAS FREE HEALTH CARE.

I would rather Pay for GREAT health care.....Then be taxed for mediocre heath care. IF corporations are forced to provide expensive health care, what do you think will happen?

1. their products and services will be priced high enough to ris themselves of an injurious part of their customer base. Their employees will be laid off causing less taxes to be paid to the Gove...
(continues)

AvgJoe said:
PROPAGANDA? Do some research into factual data on tax rates in Canada and Europe. You will realize much to your dismay NO ONE HAS FREE HEALTH CARE.

Quite galling and audacious you encourage research when you have so clearly demonstrated a profound lack of it.

Your emotional investment in your beliefs is admirable, however counter-productive when you are unable to distinguish between what is happening and what you feel to be happening.

captainplooky said:

AvgJoe said:
PROPAGANDA? Do some research into factual data on tax rates in Canada and Europe. You will realize much to your dismay NO ONE HAS FREE HEALTH CARE.

Quite galling and audacious you encourage research when you have so clearly demonstrated a profound lack of it.

Your emotional investment in your beliefs is admirable, however counter-productive when you are unable to distinguish between what is happening and what you feel to be happening.

I understand now.....You are liberal. Liberals don't seek facts they thrive on what their hero's tell them.

🤣

You could have saved a lot of time by saying this earlier and exposing yourself as a partisan hack who resorts to nothing more than the rhetoric of liberal versus conservative.

Liberals scare me. Bill Clinton is shady according to this propaganda 😳

http://www.startinglinks.net/monicalewinsky/bodycoun ... »

bigdaddyjay said:
Liberals scare me.

Even Benjamin Franklin? 😁

Dude, Franklin was flying a kite and got struck by lightning! George Bush is even smart enough to put down his fishing rod when the lightning starts. Though Franklin did have a bitchin pair of spectacles.