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Whats the point?

Wireless Buddy

Nov 13, 2006, 3:44 PM
Can someone explain to me the point of using iDen for PTT? Whats wrong with CDMA PTT?
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ArmySF

Nov 13, 2006, 3:54 PM
IDEN PTT is better until Qchat hits, thats my understanding. so it gives the current IDEN user better voice using CDMA, and they can still have their rock solid IDEN PTT.
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Wireless Buddy

Nov 13, 2006, 3:57 PM
how is iDen better?
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ArmySF

Nov 13, 2006, 4:03 PM
Wireless Buddy said:
how is iDen better?


LOW LATENCY!! Nextel has the market beat

From what I've read several analysts said they doubt that Sprint PCS will be able to match Nextel's latency, even with qchat
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nextel18

Nov 13, 2006, 4:12 PM
Qchat has a very good latency and on the set up it is 1.5 seconds so far which is adequate to the Nextel customer, especially when there is 1 year to tweak it.
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PhillyEagles

Nov 17, 2006, 12:35 AM
I think its because Nextel's walkie talkie is INSTANTANEOUS? Yea.. thats it... Razz. Cant wait till next years version comes out. I forget the model name off the top of my head. But... Hybrid=
1. Powervision (fastest download speeds in the business)
2. Direct Connect (Best PTT service)
3. Bluetooth
4. Camera

Gonna be tough to beat!
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nextel18

Nov 17, 2006, 9:19 AM
IC902 Smile
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jrfdsf

Nov 17, 2006, 7:01 PM
They're going to have to add 800 mhz roaming real soon or hybrid phones are going to be a no go. While the new phone DOES increase coverage somewhat (not to shabby in my area), overall, you wind up with about the same coverage you had with plain old Nextel. The only way Nextel users are going to switch over to this is going to be if they add more roaming. I realize they probably had to keep this first phone as simple as possible in order to insure success, but they can't wait around too long or this will become a huge flop.
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nextel18

Nov 22, 2006, 5:00 PM
It would be too difficult to have three radios built in without any problems with batteries and signal issues.
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jrfdsf

Nov 22, 2006, 5:22 PM
Why? Sprint is already doing this with some of their RL phones (1900 mhz CDMA, 800 mhz CDMA, & 800 mhz analog). Cingular did it with their GAIT phones (800 mhz GSM, 800 mhz TDMA, & 800 mhz analog).So, why should this phone be different? Again, I see the need for simplicity on intial offerings, but if Sprint doesn't offer the 800 mhz roaming, it won't matter how many goodies they pack into future phones because no Nextel subscriber is going to want to move off of their own network simply to have the same coverage through another service. Even though I've argued strongly for the quality of IDEN vs. CDMA, if Sprint offered a phone with at least 800 mhz CDMA roaming, I'd move in a heartbeat. I say let's take a poll. I'm going to start new threa...
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nextel18

Nov 22, 2006, 5:25 PM
And you notice their RL phones are not selling well. They need to keep things as simple as possible and if 1.9 GHz is not good in one area then the customer should not even be getting that device until they beef that coverage and capacity.
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jrfdsf

Nov 22, 2006, 5:32 PM
The reason their RL phones don't sell is not because they're tri-band, but because RL is slow. My point was that if Sprint and other carriers can make dual mode and tri-band phones work together, why not the hybrid phones? For now, this is o.k., but if they want the Nextel customers off IDEN voice and data, they'd better start making a phone that will.
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nextel18

Dec 5, 2006, 10:03 AM
The whole point of doing the devices is to make it easy to use with the least bit of problems. Putting more radios will not accomplish that feat.
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jrfdsf

Dec 5, 2006, 4:15 PM
Hey, where ya been? I posted that a long time ago. Oh well, my point: Tri-band Sprint phones with PCS, 800 CDMA and analog are NOT difficult to use at all. Even with RL thrown in. With voice and direct connect networks separated not only by network, but by number, and these phones DON'T utilize IDEN at all for voice, what's the problem? Simplicity isn't good if the end result is you don't have a better product than you had before. Think about it; Sprint could've been making PCS only phones all along had they wanted to, but they realized that the coverage such phones would provide would be inadequate for their customers. Nextel, although I consider them overall a great company and service, never quite seemed to figure this out. That's why mos...
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kiwietnies

Jan 8, 2007, 1:29 PM
Except that RL doesnt use its owns radio band!! The IDEN PTT service runs off its own frequency, meaning in theory that even if the rest of the voice and data portion of a Nextel tower were to go down, the PTT service can operate standalone. The RL PTT system along with every other system is VOIP, meaning it sends it over the data portion of the line. So a triMODE (not Tri band... Oi) phone is very different from a Hybrid phone. The true Hybrid device requires IDEN PTT and Sprint's 1900mhz digital and 800mhz digital. That's what they're releasing. In the vast number of cases, analog roaming won't be wanted anyway due to battery life because as is the IDEN PTT is a battery hog even without analog. The new hybrids can get something call...
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billthephoneguy

Nov 13, 2006, 4:07 PM
iDen is better than CDMA or GSM for the PTT because all the carriers exept Nextel, us VoIP (voice over Internet) for their Push to talk. This means that it takes several seconds for the initial link up, rather than less than a second like iDen. Even after the link up, everything else has a longer latency than iDen. Many contractors also like taht Direct Conect has a diferent phone number that their voice line, as it allows them to give out their cell number, without people chirping them all the time.
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ArmySF

Nov 13, 2006, 4:09 PM
billthephoneguy said:
iDen is better than CDMA or GSM for the PTT because all the carriers exept Nextel, us VoIP (voice over Internet) for their Push to talk. This means that it takes several seconds for the initial link up, rather than less than a second like iDen. Even after the link up, everything else has a longer latency than iDen. Many contractors also like taht Direct Conect has a diferent phone number that their voice line, as it allows them to give out their cell number, without people chirping them all the time.


So would you agree the qchat won't be as good an IDEN PTT??
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nextel18

Nov 13, 2006, 4:14 PM
As or right now, no, but it is close enough to IDEN. (1.5 seconds so far and there is 1 year to tweak it)
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ArmySF

Nov 13, 2006, 4:14 PM
cool cool
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nextel18

Nov 13, 2006, 4:17 PM
And with my favorite company, Qualcomm working on it, I think they can get it close to the sub-second that IDEN gives. More importantly, one can do more things and plus it is over a bigger network and this time their PTT will be good. (I have seen Qchat and it is impressive.)
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ArmySF

Nov 13, 2006, 4:20 PM
I bet right on, I love PTT, I don't why I just do I see it being so useful.
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nextel18

Nov 13, 2006, 4:32 PM
Some people like it some people do not. It is good for quick and to the point conversation but if, you want to talk a long time it is a bit of a pain and that is why there is M2M. There will obviously be those push to talk centric users but some of the users are not using their PTT MOUS that much.
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wirelesscom1

Nov 14, 2006, 10:17 AM
By this time would Sprint have CDMA towers on all the Nextel towers where Sprint didnt have service before?
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nextel18

Nov 14, 2006, 11:06 AM
Not all, but most.
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billthephoneguy

Nov 13, 2006, 5:23 PM
I have not seen Qchat demonstrated, but from what I have heard, it is supposed to be as good as Nextel by the time they role out. Weather or not that is true, well we will see. Hopefully it is, I would love to see a phone that has Qchat and its (supposedly) Nextel-like speeds, with 3 or maybe by then 4G Data. We will have to wait to find out.
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Karmaego

Dec 1, 2006, 10:49 AM
under the upcoming WiMax or 4G formatt.. yes... until then.. no
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raulr

Nov 13, 2006, 4:43 PM
Not all the other carriers use voip (or PoC rather). Cingular uses Kodiak for their PTT. The Kodiak system uses the voice channel rather than PoC and it performs much better than the PoC solutions. It's only drawback for the carrier is that it's using up their voice network rather than their data network, but performance is much more competitive with Nextel than PoC.
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nextel18

Nov 13, 2006, 4:49 PM
That is a huge drawback that Kodiak RTX uses the voice channels because if there were capacity issues on the network then there would be tons of problems. What about an outage on the public switched network? Woops. That is why Nextel’s PTT is very good, the other ones are not, and that is why Nextel’s PTT worked in NYC when that awful day on 9/11 because it does not use the public switched network, while the others do. (Their two way text message also doesn’t use the public switched network- just an FYI)
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raulr

Nov 14, 2006, 1:08 PM
So what happens when Sprint moves on to Q-chat? Won't they have the same drawback of being on the public switched network (albeit at a higher performance)?
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nextel18

Nov 14, 2006, 1:11 PM
Yea, that is true, which is a draw back but the thing is, customers who do not want to switch to use Qchat do not have to and can just use the push to talk centric devices or the dual mode devices.
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muchdrama

Nov 14, 2006, 2:24 PM
nextel18 said:
That is why Nextel’s PTT is very good, the other ones are not, and that is why Nextel’s PTT worked in NYC when that awful day on 9/11 because it does not use the public switched network, while the others do.


Yeah? Well, it went down like limp noodles down here in Florida during that really bad hurricane stretch last year.
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muchdrama

Nov 14, 2006, 2:28 PM
muchdrama said:
nextel18 said:
That is why Nextel’s PTT is very good, the other ones are not, and that is why Nextel’s PTT worked in NYC when that awful day on 9/11 because it does not use the public switched network, while the others do.


Yeah? Well, it went down like limp noodles down here in Florida during that really bad hurricane stretch last year.


And PS--Kodiak's RTX system works very well.
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billthephoneguy

Nov 13, 2006, 5:17 PM
Alright, Cingular's PTT is not a bad as Spint's or Verizon's. It still is nowhere as near as good as Nextel's, though their voice network is better.
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Karmaego

Dec 1, 2006, 10:53 AM
and to that, it's not really a PTT, it's more a half-duplex phone call simulated as a PTT call... phone calls are full-duplex which allow for those annoying conversations that have two people trying to out-talk each other.. half-duplex is one way conversation until the other let's up or tires out...

Kodiak uses the same concept as VoIP, except it's VoLL (landline) again, the system is at the Users' mercy... full system means lots of fun delays

iDEN dedicates it's PTT to base stations which only handle digital RMS signals
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nextel18

Nov 13, 2006, 4:10 PM
Sprint’s push to talk is horrible and will be phased out when Qchat comes aboard. Those customers who want to still use Nextel’s DC will continue to but their traffic will be re-routed onto the Sprint CDMA network which is a lot better than Nextel especially now with the consensus plan going on.
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ArmySF

Nov 13, 2006, 4:18 PM
consensus plan Confused is that the gov thing?, can you bring us up to speed on this.
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nextel18

Nov 13, 2006, 4:30 PM
Yea that is the whole 800 MHz interference situation.

Recent situation that happened was that Nextel has filed with the FCC an emergency use of the 900 MHz spectrum because there are problems on the 800 MHz band. Remember, they are not giving up all of their 800mhz band just some in return they will get contiguous spectrum.

There continues to be retuning and negotiation among the different waves, there is a lot of progress, and the funding is on budget.
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ArmySF

Nov 13, 2006, 4:36 PM
Well that concludes my Sprint cellular lesson for the day Smile Thanks man I feel much better informed now, I appreciate it.
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nextel18

Nov 13, 2006, 4:39 PM
But it is the Nextel cellular lesson not Sprint!!! How dare you!! Twisted Evil Evil or Very Mad

No problems.


Laughing Laughing Cool
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ArmySF

Nov 13, 2006, 4:41 PM
Laughing Laughing My bad
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nextel18

Nov 13, 2006, 4:43 PM
Cool Laughing


It better be your bad!!

Wink
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Rich Brome

Nov 13, 2006, 8:12 PM
Wireless Buddy said:
Whats wrong with CDMA PTT?

The performance sucks. Specifically, it's slow; there are significant lags in connecting and transmitting.

Not all CDMA PTT is like that, just the particular types of PTT used by Sprint and Verizon at the moment. Kodiak (used by Alltel) and QChat (coming to Sprint in the future) are pretty good.
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Wireless Buddy

Nov 13, 2006, 8:17 PM
does Cingular also use Kodiak?
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Rich Brome

Nov 13, 2006, 9:58 PM
Yes.
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AshDizzle

Nov 14, 2006, 4:15 AM
What exactly is Kodiak? I know it is the standard that Cingular/Alltel use but what exactly is the standard? It is a coding method?
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Rich Brome

Nov 14, 2006, 12:44 PM
Kodiak is technically the company. The technology is called RTX. It's a proprietary technology developed by Kodiak.

Kodiak's key innovation is using regular voice channels to handle PTT calls.

Other technologies route PTT calls over the data network (1xRTT, EDGE, etc.) Kodiak instead "hacks" the old standard voice switching system to allow it to handle PTT calls. Kodiak was the first to figure out how to do that. Because it's a simpler system with fewer steps / layers, the performance is better.

More info here:

http://www.kodiaknetworks.com/solutions/ »
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nycdru

Dec 7, 2006, 11:34 AM
Isn't that the same thing Nextel did to get voice on a PTT network? Or am I completely off base. And I am almost surprised there hasn't been more of an effort to do the same thing Kodiak did. But then again, it seems voice is going to VOIP.
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Rich Brome

Dec 7, 2006, 12:09 PM
nycdru said:
Isn't that the same thing Nextel did to get voice on a PTT network? ...

Pretty much, yes.

iDEN is a way to make a PTT network do voice.

Kodiak is a way to make a voice network do PTT.
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muchdrama

Nov 14, 2006, 2:26 PM
Rich Brome said:
Kodiak (used by Alltel)


I recently had a chance to use Alltel's Kodiak system while on a short trip, and it worked like gangbusters. Nowhere near as bad as Nextel18 will lead you to believe.
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Karmaego

Dec 1, 2006, 10:45 AM
What's wrong with CDMA PTT, the same thing that's wrong with Cingular and Verizon PTT.. it's called lag time... there is a 1-6sec relay delay between pushing the button, opening a channel and reach your intended contact.

In theory, it's VoIP PTT, but with the overflow on the Data Network, it's at the mercy of capacity and user tendencies.

iDEN PTT, it a fully dedicated 800 (for WiDEN 900) RMS network that has NO other traffice going over it when using the PTT.. the voice quality issue with the Cell service is that you have to route voice through a separate network system which routes through a switch which regulates Voice, Data and PTT...

you... have been skooled
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tuesdayniteink

Dec 12, 2006, 1:47 PM
I can't beleive no one stated the obvious -- how many millions of iDen PTT phone are out in the market already? EVERY nextel phone is a PTT phone (unlike Sprint, or Verizon, or Cingular, or any one else). You want a new nextel phone to PTT to the old nextel phones...

iDen baby.
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southparkfreak

Jan 5, 2007, 8:11 PM
OMFG... Eh? I CANT GET AN ANWSER FROM NEXTEL R SPRINT??? PERSONALY I THINK ITS A CROCK OF DIRTY UNDERWARE. Laughing
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mroblero

Jan 22, 2007, 6:39 PM
Nextel's push to talk works on an idependant system than it's cellular signal. That it is way it is so fast. The rest of the carriers have to piggyback their PTT feature on there cellular signal. So what happens is that it is treated like a cellular call and it will run into high call volume towers and drop or it wil have to wait in line for the signal. Most carriers do no want to spend the money to build a whole new and independent network to support their PTT. Nextel did just that.
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