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James Kim and Cell Phone Service

pwfb

Dec 12, 2006, 12:36 PM
I hesitated in positing this question as some may be offended by the morbid nature of my question and/or some may question my sincerity. So to reassure everyone ahead of time, as a father, husband and a human being, I am depply saddened by the loss of James Kim. I pose my question with only the best and legitimate intentions.

The horrible tragedy regarding the loss of James Kim aside for a moment, a question has resurfaced for me. The last I heard the FCC still plans to allow cell providers to deactivate analog (AMPS) cell service in the US very soon. Though the Kim's may have had digital service on their cell phone, there are still many areas (aka potential death traps) of this country that rely on analog cell service. Shouldn't all cell...
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sowhatsowhat10

Dec 12, 2006, 12:50 PM
i thought the analog areas were going into overlay before the technology is fully split. they do have until 2008 right. now what im a little lost at is vzw, and sprint still have analog in son heavily traveled rural back roads but most of their new phones dont support analog. i know thats their way of starting to phase it out and all but still digital overlays should be done before 3g services are rolled out in the top 100 markets.
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SprintLynchburg_VA

Dec 12, 2006, 3:41 PM
correction Sprint has NO ANALOG, Sprint All Digital PCS network. Verizon has overlayed every analog tower w/ digital.

Your point is mute.
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pwfb

Dec 12, 2006, 3:44 PM
Really? How come I used analog in CA a couple of weeks ago and in SD about 3 months ago?
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SprintLynchburg_VA

Dec 12, 2006, 3:53 PM
analog is still up, your phone prolly has the Sys ID blocked in the PRL of the digital tower, it was another company's tower, your phone is defective, you have your phone forced to roam, you might have an AMPS/1900 phone and the tower is 800 or AMPS/800 phone and its a 1900 tower. I would say the most likely suspect is the phone or phone software.
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pwfb

Dec 12, 2006, 4:16 PM
Don't know and this is not aimed at you in any way, don't care. IT WORKS wherever I have to be.
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SPCSVZWJeff

Dec 20, 2006, 7:18 PM
Analog works well and it is the most prevalent technology in many rural areas.

Mr. Kim was in an area in Oregon covered by U.S. Cellular, Ramcell, Edge Wireless and Sprint. Unfortunately the area he was in is a remote place covered only sparsely by U.S. Cellular's Analog service. That terrain is very difficult to bring reliable coverage into and to cover properly would require millions of dollars of investment with absolutely no return on that investment.
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pwfb

Dec 21, 2006, 3:10 PM
I'm not trying to be flip or a jerk, but does it come down to that you are SOL if you travel to this, or other remote areas in the US? If so, and I understand the economics of it, I would find it sad considering all of the innovation this country has experienced just in the last 5 years and we can't provide some sort of reliable communication/tracking everywhere? Perhaps a rhetorical question, my apologies ahead of time.
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SPCSVZWJeff

Dec 22, 2006, 9:01 AM
Technical innovation has its limits. sometimes the terrain prohibits reliable radio communication of any kind. Wireless carriers could and do spend billions to improve the networks. It will never be enough to provide reliable communication in every area.
Even Satellite is plagued with capacity problems and cannot be used in dense forests.
I wish it were different for the sake of this family and any other family or individual in a similar situation. For now we must live with the reality that many remote areas are years out from wireless coverage if it ever comes to them.
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pwfb

Dec 23, 2006, 10:12 AM
As you obviously know more about the technical aspects of this than I, here is a "dumb" question, and admitedly this comes across as a loaded question.

Can we honestly say that the US Carriers are spending money to develop reliable communications everywhere in the US that does not suffer from the terrain issues that you mentioned versus just in highly dense consuming populated areas such as cities and suburbia?
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kiwietnies

Dec 23, 2006, 5:16 PM
It isn't really a any carrier's duty or responsibility to build their network for charity or the humanity of it. The fact is that 10 years ago this wasn't an issue because cell phones weren't nearly as big and the Kim's tragic incident would be just that, a tragic incident. Its no one's fault that they didn't get coverage because they were trapped miles away from any populous of any kind. A cell carrier is going to cover the area that they will be able to profit from and that's it. If its economically friendly for them to expand there, they will, but they're not the government being responisible to build roads to remote places or anything.
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pwfb

Dec 26, 2006, 3:46 PM
I well understand, embrace and value both capitalism and profit. That said, at least in my own business, we also practice social responsibility as well, even if it costs us money. Perhaps someone besides the carriers should subsidize universal coverage in remote areas?
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Hayate

Dec 26, 2006, 4:05 PM
Businesses have no social responsibility. You start a business to profit. If you personally want to do something good for people, that's fine. But there is no actual responsibility for businesses to assume.

As a business owner, the extent of consideration for customers is that you need to make them happy so they continue to give you their business.

For me, I don't have any societal obligation or responsibility to treat my customers nicely. I look at it from a business standpoint. If I'm rude, people won't buy a phone from me. I want people to buy phones from me because that's how I make money. For this reason, even if the person is a complete douche that I absolutely can't stand, I will put up with it and be friend...
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pwfb

Dec 26, 2006, 7:41 PM
Each of us started our businesses for different reasons and with different eventual intents. I reject the notion that you, me, or anyone else can dicate business/corporate responsibility.

In both of my businesses we have been able to meld both nicely and earn a very nice ROI. As for being nice to people you don't care for to make a sale, I guess that's yet another difference between us. I only do business with who I want to do business with. Then again our client retention rate is 99.1% (measured monthly), we've experienced NO staff turnover since we started the businesses 13 years ago and I get at least 30 resumes a week from people.

As for consumer responsibility, I somewhat agree, but not everyone is like you and me by having the ab...
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Hayate

Dec 26, 2006, 8:00 PM
It has nothing to do with being able to easily afford phone service. People that can't affor cell phones or don't buy cell phones are not our customers so we have no obligation to them. And either way, no matter what business it is, it's still the responsibility of the consumer to know what they're agreeing to before signing a legally binding contract agreeing to the company's terms.

I will turn away customers that are abusive and rude, because I don't find it worth it to deal with that just to get a sale. However, if we're just talking about people that are annoying, slow, dumb, cheap, etc, it's more beneficial to me to close the sale anyway.
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pwfb

Dec 26, 2006, 8:06 PM
You illustrate to me very well why I miss the old days of cell service. My "home" area was like 1 or 2 counties, my monthly bill was usually between $1200-1500 and when I walked into the store, everyone knew who I was and trated me like a valued customer.

Today it's all about churn and numbers, "service" and relationships be dammed.

Glad that your system is working for you. I couldn't do it. I would not be able to sleep at night.
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Hayate

Dec 26, 2006, 9:47 PM
What is wrong with saying it isn't our responsibility to provide service to people that are not our customers?

This is a business, and businesses exist to make money. In order to make money, you have to sell things.

There is no reason to have a good "relationship" with someone who will never buy a phone or use our service. That would be like a butcher being concerned about having a good relationship with the vegetarians in his community. If I were a butcher and someone who was a strict vegetarian came in and just wanted to talk about meat for whatever reason, you can guarantee that as soon as a paying customer came in I'd drop that conversation in a heartbeat to help the customer that was going to make a purchase.

If they aren't ...
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pwfb

Dec 26, 2006, 10:00 PM
And if the vegetarian's out-of-town relatives eat meat and are coming for a visit who will the vegetarin go to for food, the butcher who blew him off or a different store? I understand that if a paying customer came in at that moment the butcher would have to politely excuse himself/herself.

As for "baffling", I am old school. We've been in business long enough for me to say the following-

1. The people you least expect to be your best customers usually turn out to be.

2. Treat people the way you want to be treated.

4. You can have great technology and products but if you lack "service", you have nothing and eventually fail.

5. It takes as much effort to treat people great as it does to treat them poorly. Considering the world...
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Hayate

Dec 26, 2006, 10:18 PM
Perhaps we're arguing two points of different arguments. I'm not saying people should be treated poorly by any means, and in the butcher/vegitarian example I wouldn't just rudely end the conversation either.

The original point to this was that you (I believe it was you anyhow) said that cell phone providers have a social responsibility when discussing the point of putting towers up in remote areas where there are no customers.

My point was that currently, companies are spending lots of money adding towers in populated areas. To suddenly start funding towers in remote areas with no people simply for the sake of safety and social responsibility, you'd be looking at a much higher cost for building towers. With the market being as compe...
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pwfb

Dec 27, 2006, 11:24 AM
What if every subscriber in the U.S. paid an extra .10 a month for a defined period of time for the express purpose of establishing and maintaining coverage in remote areas of the U.S. Based on the millions of subscribers in the USA, the money part would be easily covered. I would find it hard to believe that ANYONE would have a problem with paying an extra dime a month.
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Hayate

Dec 27, 2006, 2:20 PM
If that was brought up as an option I would not have a problem paying an extra dime a month for a certain period to put those towers up. If others did have a problem with it they would have the option to go to another carrier. Personally I see no problem with that.

The thing is, people can't demand these new towers without being willing to pay their part and I'm quite sure a lot of people would complain or decide to leave their current carrier if they did something like that. We all know this one fact: people are stupid. They think that the existence of contracts is horrible and anti-consumer and they want to get out of them at any cost.
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pwfb

Dec 27, 2006, 2:38 PM
Well, we found some common ground ;-')

I know that isn't probably technically possible, but it would be really great if these "remote" cell sites could offer universal coverage no matter which carrier you use. Then again, if I use VZW and I am in an area where Cingular has a site and VZW does not, can't I make a 911 call on their network?

Another thought BTW. After the initial infrastructure is built, to maintain it, what if the carrier(s) went to a pay for use service? In other words if I am in a remote part of New Englad and I need to make a call, I get a recording like-"this area is not served by traditional cell service. to make a call you will be charged a special fee of $5.00 in addition to regular air time charges to make this c...
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Hayate

Dec 27, 2006, 2:55 PM
I think that would be the best possible solution. If I was stranded in the middle of nowhere I would have no problems whatsoever paying $5 to get help for myself and my family. This would be especially useful once the whole GPS thing becomes more common in phones.

Also, I'm fairly sure you're able to make 911 calls pretty much anywhere you can get any sort of reception. I'm not sure about this, but I think you're even able to do so if your phone is suspended...
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pwfb

Dec 27, 2006, 3:28 PM
Yeah, I know that "dead" (non-activated) phones can dial 911 as we have donated a bunch to womens shelters.

Now we have to find a way to pitch the dime + $5 surcharge idea to the carriers!
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SPCSVZWJeff

Dec 23, 2006, 5:56 PM
Towers cost big bucks, anywhere from $500,000.00 to $4,000,000.00 or more. Wireless carriers have limited means to build them. Also they are for profit businesses. If any carrier were to cover an area like that it would be U.S. Cellular. They specialize in rural markets and are a Godsend to loggers, farmers and outdoorsmen. You can use a U.S. Cellular phone on top of Mt. St. Helens and Mt. Rainier. One can not accuse them or any other carrier of not caring or not trying.
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SprintLynchburg_VA

Dec 12, 2006, 4:11 PM
and yes Really, he stated that Sprint has analog (Sprint has no analog towers, not even one) Verizon has analog, but has put a digital tower on top of every analog tower. Thats all he mentioned, what I am stating is fact.
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sowhatsowhat10

Dec 12, 2006, 4:47 PM
verizon has not overlay'd every tower
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SprintLynchburg_VA

Dec 12, 2006, 4:49 PM
and you base this on what?
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sowhatsowhat10

Dec 13, 2006, 12:49 PM
the fact that me 325 still uses it. ๐Ÿ˜Ž
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SprintLynchburg_VA

Dec 13, 2006, 1:23 PM
sorry your still wrong. Verizon has overlayed all there analog towers. Its fact.
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sowhatsowhat10

Dec 13, 2006, 4:56 PM
okay brother my phone still hit analog in this area.
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SprintLynchburg_VA

Dec 13, 2006, 5:08 PM
is it Verizon?
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sowhatsowhat10

Dec 13, 2006, 5:26 PM
YES

https://www.phonescoop.com/phones/phone.php?p=742 »

this is it. v325 non-bluetooth im still on a dealer plan i had when working at a vzw dealer.
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katrina

Dec 20, 2006, 5:06 PM
Analog signals still travel further than CDMA ones. If you were out of range of the CDMA signal, you may still have been able to pick up AMPS. But it doesn't mean the tower hasn't been overlayed with CDMA
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sowhatsowhat10

Dec 13, 2006, 10:11 AM
the damn fact my v325 still uses it in my city
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Sensible

Dec 12, 2006, 8:10 PM
Last June in central VT I tried using my a/d Verizon LG 4400, could only get an analog signal. Sounded like DX AM radio in a thunderstorm, but would have gotten through in an emergency. No digital signal at all, and I had not reconfigured my phone from the way I use it in NYC.

Have they overlayed that tower since then? I'm switching to Cingular on the basis of this experience. Friends have confirmed Cing has decent coverage where I go up there.
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SprintLynchburg_VA

Dec 12, 2006, 8:18 PM
Cingular is GSM there is more digital coverage with CDMA
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Sensible

Dec 12, 2006, 8:50 PM
I guess I'm too typical a consumer. I know that different phones and carriers use various technologies. Don't have a clue what those differences are. It's a job enough just to figure out which phones have the features I need. ๐Ÿ˜•
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sowhatsowhat10

Dec 13, 2006, 10:16 AM
SprintLynchburg_VA said:
Cingular is GSM there is more digital coverage with CDMA

fact there is more digital cdma coverage combined. but however cingular has the largest proprietary network
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SprintLynchburg_VA

Dec 13, 2006, 10:19 AM
yes and they roam w/ t-mobile, and that shows there nationwide map, unimpressive, now Sprint roams w. Verizon Alltel Us Cellular, Ntelos, Qwest, and many more companies. So FACT: CDMA has more coverage than GSM

not talking about carriers. You will get more coverage being on any CDMA carrier than being on a GSM carrier
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sowhatsowhat10

Dec 13, 2006, 12:48 PM
yea they roam with t-mo in certain area's. if im correct in new york and california. other than that they broke that deal a year or two ago. i am agreeing that cdma has more towers than gsm but cingular has the largest network (they own the most towers NOT including roaming partners) i believe its somewhere between 46 and 48,000 towers.
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SprintLynchburg_VA

Dec 13, 2006, 1:25 PM
yea so they cause more debt, its cheaper to lease, which is what most other carriers do, if you compare Cingular to Verizon, in leased towers, not roaming but leased and corporately owned, Verizon wins hands down, not a Verizon elitist. Just know that facts are often skewed, and Cingular's are.
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sowhatsowhat10

Dec 13, 2006, 5:22 PM
๐Ÿคฃ
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sowhatsowhat10

Dec 12, 2006, 4:45 PM
thats where you are MUTE. i live in hbg pa where evdo has been in the city for quite sometime as soon as i hit the west side of our town i use analog on my v325i and have no service with my lg 8100.

mind you sprint has NO analong network of their own but they do have roaming partners that do. and if my memory serves me correct in the largest network battle sprint and cingular had before the fewest dropped calls network they claimed that as apart of their network

MUTE that sucka
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SprintLynchburg_VA

Dec 12, 2006, 4:59 PM
well you mentioned the companies doing overlay before they do EVDO rollout, since they have no analog how can they do overlay before they do EVDO.

Your point was mute.

Sprint can claim analog as Population covered, and Cingular can't b/c GSM phones don't have Analog unless you count GAIT technology which no longer exists. But again the debate was the largest digital calling area, analog was not including, but yes Sprint CDMA roaming agreements were. Not insulting you. Just your demands to overlay before investing in EVDO doesn't make any sense.
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not2brite

Dec 14, 2006, 11:51 AM
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/moot »

Let's use the language the way it is supposed to be used!
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SprintLynchburg_VA

Dec 14, 2006, 11:54 AM
Thats awesome, thanks!
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SprintLynchburg_VA

Dec 12, 2006, 3:38 PM
no, Analog doesn't work properly on handheld phones, and few phones being made even use analog. Getting rid of those analog towers will allow companies to release resources, to properly cover the US, w/ digital coverage and data coverage.
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pwfb

Dec 12, 2006, 3:43 PM
Hmm, analog on mine worked great a few weeks ago while I was in CA traveling to NV.....

I am not knowlegable enough about this to comment thoroughly, but on the surface, it would seem to me that you should be able to expand digtial before dumping analog towers since I thought the towers stayed, they were just being converted.
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SprintLynchburg_VA

Dec 12, 2006, 3:55 PM
To explain, analog was made for 3 watt bag phones, handsets today have around a .5 watts, not allowing as good of coverage as what a digital tower would. You have to be near the tower and stay near to get good coverage w. analog.

I would speak with your carrier and see why. Depending on what carrier and what phone you have you can look up the towers System ID and can tell you whose tower your on, from there I would see why your not picking up the digital signal.
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pwfb

Dec 12, 2006, 4:15 PM
I was on the same route (CA to NV) a few months ago with my LG-VX8300 (all digital) and had no service in some areas. When I did it a few weeks ago with the LG-VX5300, coverage (AMPS or Digital) virtually every where.

I still remember my mobile mounted phone (gosh I miss those days!) about 20 years ago having 3 watts. The bill every month was crazy high, the install process was always a pain, but, those truly were the good 'ole cellular days!
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Sensible

Dec 12, 2006, 8:23 PM
Didn't have a phone then, but I remember them anyway, with mixed emotions. We had to think up an ad for a switchmaker, the point being that the telco could buy a small switch to start and add on as the market grows.

The art director and I immediately thought about rabbits in cages, but figured that was pretty trite so we went for a different visual analog (no pun intended) -- a 6 lane highway with one car on it. Unfortunately, we meant it to be a dramatic photorealistic visual, and I guess the budget turned it into an simple hand rendering. Not a very impactful ad.

When I left the agency shortly after, the uberboss, who never saw our original idea, said we should have done something more dramatic, more simple and to the point, some...
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not2brite

Dec 14, 2006, 11:54 AM
Huh?

That's just not right...it worked on all my handhelds before digital even came around a few years back.

Garbage in, garbage out.

You mind is a terrible thing to waste...
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SprintLynchburg_VA

Dec 14, 2006, 11:56 AM
well the MicroTac and TeleTac worked great over 1 watt of analog, currently w/ around a half a watt, it works but not very useful.
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not2brite

Dec 14, 2006, 12:01 PM
Then in fact, your statement was incorrect, right?
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SprintLynchburg_VA

Dec 14, 2006, 12:03 PM
overexaggeration, yes, but still useless in my opinion
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not2brite

Dec 14, 2006, 12:21 PM
Thanks for playing.
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SprintLynchburg_VA

Dec 14, 2006, 12:33 PM
So Analog was designed for .5 watt cell phones????? Am I wrong that handhelds use .5 watts? Has there ever been an AMPS only mode phone with just half a watt? I think not. In fact I know not. Sorry to hurt your feelings if your argument is that yes it theoritically works w/ .5 watts then your a tool. You cannot offer a cell phone service to rely on analog w. a half watt analog phone and hope they enjoy there service.
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not2brite

Dec 14, 2006, 12:41 PM
Read the subject line of this particular post. It is a quote of what you posted.

You said it doesn't work properly on handheld phones, I say it works properly but not well.

Yes, there is, indeed, a difference.

Yes, there SILL are analog sites online and operating, even though you say there are not. I also know you are the acknowledged subject matter expert on cellular technology since you are based in Lynchburg, the mobile capital of the US. Plus, I acknowlege you also work for the same company RayCarroll70 does, so you both are the last word on every subject related to cellular/PCS services.

I guess I'll have to change my screen name to not2britetool, huh?
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SprintLynchburg_VA

Dec 14, 2006, 1:06 PM
yes there are still analog sites operating, I never said anything to the contrary, I argued w/ the person that said that Verizon and Sprint have analog towers and have not overlayed them w. digital and thinks they should keep analog on. Which Sprint does not own a single Analog site, and Verizon has overlayed every single analog tower they have w/ digital.

Wanna argue any of that?

Analog doesn't work properly on current handheld phones. Sound better to you? Teletac and Microtac would be excluded from this. I do not have as much wireless experience as you, but I do have 7 years. I used to recrystallize and tune pagers and sell bag phones. I am not RayCarrol70. You stepping into this conversation has been pointless. Besides enhancing my...
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ralph_on_me

Dec 14, 2006, 1:07 PM
not2brite said:
I guess I'll have to change my screen name to not2britetool, huh?

I kinda like that name.
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krickt

Dec 14, 2006, 1:34 PM
My phone is a trimode. It doesn't work as fast on Analog as it does on CDMA, but it works. It works about as well as those old Analog phones did, when not attached to a car battery. You're just accustomed to the new digital age, and used to the quickness.
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SprintLynchburg_VA

Dec 14, 2006, 1:36 PM
I am used to analog, been in the industry 7 years
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krickt

Dec 14, 2006, 1:55 PM
Analog works, just not in the same way or with the same effeciency as digital. It probably wouldn't have helped the Kims.
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SprintLynchburg_VA

Dec 14, 2006, 1:57 PM
He was 16 miles away from anything living, they don't put cell towers where noone can use them.
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crossedsignals

Jan 4, 2007, 2:17 PM
I'm late to the discussion on this, but...here are a few thoughts I had on the topic and how potentially the selection of a GSM carrier hurt their chances of being able to reach help by phone

The facts as I've been able to gather:

The Kim's were Cingular customers in Edge Wireless' coverage area. They had 2 or 3 phones in the car, depending on the report. I assume they were all Cingular.

The Saab 9-2x they were driving was not equipped with OnStar ( other Saab models are OnStar equipped, unfortunately). Having OnStar might have allowed for a distress call on a CDMA network.

The 2 text messages and assocated call records were processed through Edge Wireless' tower at Glendale, OR / Wolf's Peak, OR (according to their press rele...
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Sensible

Dec 12, 2006, 8:47 PM
Interesting feedback from many angles, on the subject of emergency notification and location finding in rural areas by making cellphones better lifelines:

Rafe Needleman's Cell phone lifeline challenge at
http://www.webware.com/8301-1_109-9667151-2.html »
and responses at
http://www.webware.com/8301-1_109-9667407-2.html?tag ... »

Thanks to CNET.com for this.
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RoyalBlu

Dec 14, 2006, 12:03 PM
Who is he?? ๐Ÿคจ
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not2brite

Dec 14, 2006, 12:20 PM
Have you heard the story of the man, his wife and 2 kids stranded in the back woods of Oregon a week ago? He workd for CNET and Eric (one of the forum mods) posted about him when he went missing. The wife and kids were found alive in the car, but he died going to look for help.

It would help in these forums if you make some kind of effort to at least know a little of current events a little something of the subject line...
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RoyalBlu

Dec 14, 2006, 5:00 PM
is this rudeness aimed at me?
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sowhatsowhat10

Dec 14, 2006, 7:58 PM
looks like it. ๐Ÿ‘€ ๐Ÿ˜ฒ ๐Ÿ˜ณ ๐Ÿคฃ ๐Ÿคฃ ๐Ÿคฃ
however google it or comcast.net it and you will find it
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RoyalBlu

Dec 15, 2006, 5:17 PM
The wife and kids were found alive in the car, but he died going to look for help.



WRONG: the wife and kids were found a little ways from the car. read the story before you jump on somebody for asking a simple question a$$ !!
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pwfb

Dec 14, 2006, 12:25 PM
Rather than explain it, I suggest going to google, typing in James Kim and click on the news tab.
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RoyalBlu

Dec 14, 2006, 5:01 PM
thank you
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rallykid

Dec 21, 2006, 4:07 PM
Or you could search for "Unprepared sheeple who went into the mountains without taking the proper precautions, emergency gear or "just in case supplies".

Don't get me wrong, I feel bad for the family. It is just frustrating to see people go off like this unprepared to take care of themselves and the people they are responsible for. Too many people have the "Someone will come and save me" mentality. Don't count on it, take responsibility and be prepared to take care of yourself.

If you are traveling long distances through unfamiliar and especially rough terrain, be prepared. When I travel I take along my backpack which has everything I would need to survive for 7 days on alone in the wilderness for 7+ days. This includes items for wa...
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