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850 downfall

155n8th

Oct 29, 2003, 6:32 PM
where the only carrier that uses it, right now in the washington/baltimore area cingular only has two triband phones the 6200 and t616 and accouding to brochures well have international roaming by nov 3rd, but if you put a 900/1800 unlocked phone on or system you going to have problems with voice mail, and things like that. they choose the easy way out i think, it limits you to certain phone if you want all of your features. we live in ebay times i want my freedom to get a hot phone no-one has.


they need to merge with somebody.
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Chris Russell

Oct 29, 2003, 7:39 PM
Why shouldn't the carrier determine which phone will be used on it's system to maintain signal quality and not just take any unlocked ebay phone? Cingular chose 850 in all of it's 800 TDMA markets to use the same frequencies and transceivers. There has been international roaming for years, but you can't cover all locations in one phone (currently).

If you want a hot phone no-one has, you are asking for pie in the sky.

Chris
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Chris Russell

Oct 29, 2003, 7:41 PM
Why shouldn't the carrier determine which phone will be used on it's system to maintain signal quality and not just take any unlocked ebay phone? Cingular chose 850 in all of it's 800 TDMA markets to use the same frequencies and transceivers. There has been international roaming for years, but you can't cover all locations in one phone (currently).

If you want a hot phone no-one has, you are asking for pie in the sky.

Chris
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155n8th

Oct 29, 2003, 9:57 PM
no way, first becuase theres no way for the carrier to keep track of what phone you use once you go gsm, and cingular international roaming was dependent on getting a signal outside of the country only mexico and a few others still have tdma, cingular went gsm to offer customers wider phone choices before maybe a year ago the only markets of cingulars that were gsm were california and north carolina all i want is a windows powered smartphone, not a rim pager or pocket pc, and going gsm give me that option, the most advanced phone we carry in my market the t616 or 3600 i dont want wap i want xhtml tmobile has the sidekick, att the p800 cingular is stil behind, having that flexablity keeps people interested. i was interested in gsm when cingu...
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Chris Russell

Oct 30, 2003, 7:55 AM
It's interesting that just yesterday I read that most businesspeople want a phone for voice and voice mail and text messaging. There is no great call for the web, GPRS, etc. If you find a phone you want to use, go to that service. Cingular has never been known to have the hottest new phones, whereas Sprint PCS has been known to have the newest and hottest phones and features. So, if you stay with Cingular you have to live with their system capabilities. Personally I like the 850 overlays better than CA's 1900 GSM-much better penetration. Also, it would have been impossible to get 1900 spectrum as the FCC has already auctioned it all off.
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155n8th

Oct 30, 2003, 10:39 AM
thats the thing tho cingulars customers dont know about (the ones that have been around for a long time) i sell cingular, but i left there serivce along time ago for tmoble, no more billing issues cust service 24hrs that know what there talking about.
im saying cingular needs to do things now to put them back on top and try as we might service isnt everything look at nextel, the worst regular service around but on of the biggest and still growing because of two way service. it about phones in the end.
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TomZ

Oct 30, 2003, 12:36 PM
So is everyone saying that Cingular's phones are no good? Granted, the 5165 days weren't cutting edge and a lot of the new "free phones" are sub-par, but they're making strides. I use the Nokia 6200 and I love it. And Cingular's pushing ahead--they're the first GSM carrier to put out the Treo 600, so they can't be THAT far behind the times.

Maybe I'm biased because I sell their products. I just don't think they're THAT bad. I'll take my 6200 over a 5165 or timeport any day.

tz
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155n8th

Oct 30, 2003, 10:19 PM
well im not saying there no good, i just expected better of cingular, wireless world is big competiton and working for cingular for about 5 years ive just always wanted them to step up there game, people complain all the time were the only company that cant give a customer numbers from out of state and until gsm, (two years later than att) always behind in phones.
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scottj

Oct 30, 2003, 12:01 PM
I feel your frustration but really I think there's more to it than this. Yes, I wish providers would hurry up with some of their rollouts - I wish GSM coverage was complete and that EDGE was rolled out and that data rates were reasonable. But a provider can't offer a handset that doesn't exist. I've been waiting to jump to GSM and hopefully replace my PocketPC and phone with a single device. So far, I've been extremely disappointed with what the handset manufacturers are pumping out. I'd be a whole lot more excited if I didn't live in the US. My issues:
1. 800 spectrum. GSM is delivered in the US on 850 and 1900. The number of handsets which support both is trivial in comparison to 900/1800/1900 models. Roaming agreements will cha...
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TomZ

Oct 30, 2003, 12:38 PM
PS

Cingular launched EDGE already, including the world's first EDGE phone, before any other US carrier. No one's trying harder than Cingular.
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scottj

Oct 30, 2003, 1:08 PM
Really? As far as I know, the only announced EDGE rollout from Cingular is the Indianapolis test market. That's not a significant launch. A significant launch is when it's available everywhere on the network that GPRS is available - ie. in production - not test. Until then, it's only test markets and that doesn't do me (or anyone outside of Indianapolis) any good at all. Besides, the only EDGE capable handsets that I know of throttle EDGE anyway. The newly announced Nokias will deliver real EDGE but they aren't going to be around until at least 1st quarter. It also appears that ATTWS has soft launched EDGE but no firm announcement yet. One (very small) test market makes for some reasonable press but until it's widely available it's s...
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phone man

Nov 5, 2003, 1:09 PM
Cingular was NOT the first to launch an EDGE phone. AT&T Wireless was the first to offer the Nokia 6200. Cingular was the first however to launch EDGE itself but in only 1 market( Indianapolis). AT&T wireless will be the first to launch EDGE across its entire GSM/GPRS network at 1 time before the end of 2003. Even Tmobile will offer EDGE across its entire network before Cingular.
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wb

Nov 6, 2003, 10:56 PM
Indeed, AT&T announced EDGE before Cingular did. The problem is that EDGE is not yet sufficiently launched for GSM phones. From my understanding of EDGE- AT&T first launched EDGE for their TDMA phones.
Before getting excited, or annoyed, regarding EDGE would it not be better to wait until EDGE is fully launched on all GSM systems? Until then folks who want EDGE will just keep getting annoyed about their phone performances.
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155n8th

Oct 30, 2003, 12:45 PM
now thats what I'm talking about, I'm not looking for new ring tones, i want real features i could care less about a radio or real sound i want bluetooth, full xhtml.html expandable memory. and most of all signal and that the one main thing 850 wont give me, even within the local calling area there way to many carriers of gsm here now for us not to have roamer agreements and better features. it just hard for me to believe that in technology were like a third world country so far behind
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scottj

Oct 30, 2003, 2:03 PM
well, I'm on the same wave-length as you here except that I don't see what 850 has to do with anything. My issues are - slow roll-out of reliable, fast, affordable data and the availability of devices which take advantage of them. I'm not clear that the issues brough up here have anything to do with 850 vs. 1900. I'm looking to replace my PocketPC and phone with a single device. GPRS is not a reasonable business data solution - it's just too slow. I'm better off using a modem or ethernet card in my PocketPC from a hotel. EDGE is getting there - particularly when we get real EDGE capable handsets. My 850 issue is simply the fact that we use 850 in the US and most handsets don't support it - whether that's because our service providers ...
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TomZ

Oct 30, 2003, 3:07 PM
I have to agree with you on the Microsoft/Motorola issue. Where's the love for the US?

tz
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155n8th

Oct 30, 2003, 10:09 PM
yah and that just it though cingular is the only carrier using 850 so it means manufacturers have make other handsets which is going to limit the product available.
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scottj

Oct 31, 2003, 10:45 AM
Actually, that's not true. ATTWS is rolling out GSM on the 850 spectrum where it has license to do it. Both Cingular and ATTWS will continue to do so, particularly as they migrate more subscribers off TDMA, again, where they have license to do it. As far as I know, only T-Mobile holds no 800 MHz license in the US and therefore will deploy it's GSM service strictly on 1900. 850/1900 is an issue for both carriers.
Scott
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wb

Oct 30, 2003, 10:15 PM
While I can agree that many people want more features what does that have to do with 850? So what if it's not good for international roaming- most cell phone users here don't go past American borders. Isn't 850 another feature- an option that many carries do not provide? This is hardly a downfall or short coming.
I would like to see reasonably price quad phones as a standard product. 850/900-1800/1900 but the problem is that most countries are not set up to allow quad phones to work right. Although the demand is there and the companies can make them the providers won't budge to accommodate them.
As for cell phone producers no one makes anything like you would like to see that is compatible with any other system. Most PC/cell phon...
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155n8th

Oct 30, 2003, 10:27 PM
yeah but gsm has been 900 1800/1900 for years and is so still in older sbc markets it just a bigger disadvantge to customers relocating say from north carolina, or cali to washington dc and yes there are quad banned phones but there wont be that many. and though it may have much to do with roamer agreements and such cingulars gsm needs all the help it can get reception wise because we still have customers with analog bag phones, (upgraded one today) and no matter what you tell them they dont understand theres going to be a big difference in signal.
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Rich Brome

Oct 31, 2003, 6:02 PM
155n8th said:
where the only carrier that uses it,


Cingular didn't have a choice. 850 is the spectrum they have. There isn't any 1900 spectrum available for most of the country, and if it was, it would be prohibitively expensive. Cingular did pay (a lot) for some new 1900 spectrum from Nextwave, but that;s only for a few areas - they couldn't doi that for the whole country. So the choice was stick with TDMA or move to GSM 850...

right now in the washington/baltimore area cingular only has two triband phones the 6200 and t616 and accouding to brochures well have international roaming by nov 3rd,


...but those phones only do GSM 1800. It will be interesting to see how good cove...
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155n8th

Oct 31, 2003, 11:28 PM
my bad i meant triband none 850 like tmobile phone for instance on cingulars network youll have reception problems and problems with voice and data. Cingular sent us and email today saying they have roamer agreements overseas but that it may be LIMITED i thought it was kind of funny it seemed like there trying to stress that point.

i with cingular going from tdma (weve had gait for a while but the service wasnt the best until gsm was switched on in our area) i think they waited to long because we still have customers with analog phones the difference in coverage halts people from switching, we might need to do what att did and offer people to opt out so we can at least get all of our customers on the same page and make better our cover...
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Rich Brome

Nov 1, 2003, 12:06 AM
155n8th said:
my bad i meant triband none 850 like tmobile phone for instance on cingulars network youll have reception problems and problems with voice and data. ...


I'm still not following. "triband none 850" doesn't make much sense, but it sounds like you're talking about a tri-band GSM phone with no GSM 850 - in other words, a GSM 900/1800/1900 phone. Such a phone would have no service on Cingular's network in most parts of the country.

...Cingular sent us and email today saying they have roamer agreements overseas but that it may be LIMITED i thought it was kind of funny it seemed like there trying to stress that point. ...


If Cingular says their international ser...
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155n8th

Nov 2, 2003, 12:34 PM
GSM 900/1800/1900 phone actually does work but data with data problems it will just say cingular extended no voice mail indicator worse service but u can get signal
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Rich Brome

Nov 2, 2003, 5:07 PM
155n8th said:
GSM 900/1800/1900 phone actually does work but data with data problems it will just say cingular extended no voice mail indicator worse service but u can get signal


Exactly - because you're roaming - you're not on Cingular's network at all. You need GSM 850 to actually be on Cingular's network (outside of NY and CA). Cingular can't afford to offer such generous roaming policies forever. Before too long, you'll be charged for that kind of roaming.
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scottj

Nov 3, 2003, 12:36 PM
"Not when they have the power to influence manufacturers to make phones to their specs.

Cingular is a huge, huge carrier. A couple years ago, they told manufacturers "we need GSM 850 phones".

Hmmm, I'm not quite so sure on this - my biggest beef is the lack of 850 choice. Yes, there are some now but man, look at the very cool products coming out: Nokia 6600, Seimens SX1, Moto MPx200, Sendo X... Not one of these phones support 850. I've been wondering about this for a while - don't Cingular and ATTWS command a large enough market to carry some clout with the manufacturers? They are both rolling out some of their GSM on 850. Some products are out there but, in virtually all cases, on lesser equipped phones (excepting the 3600/50/20/...
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Rich Brome

Nov 3, 2003, 1:31 PM
Let's be realistic, here. Put all the GSM 850 carriers together, including AT&T and Cingular, and that's still a pretty small percentage of the global GSM market. Then combine that with the fact that not everyone needs or wants a world phone - most people just want a phone that works in their region.

So you can't expect every manufacturer to be rushing to create quad-band phones. There just isn't the demand. Every band added - no matter which band - adds cost. The phone has to be tuned, tested, re-tuned, and re-tested until it performs well on ALL bands. It's usually cheaper to create a dual-band phone, even if it means two models - one for the U.S. and one for Europe, etc.

Now, given the fact that GSM 850 is a relatively small part of...
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scottj

Nov 3, 2003, 4:44 PM
well, I don't completely agree here. With respect to quad-band, I agree and my point was not that I want one. In fact, I could care less about 900/1800 - I rarely travel abroad and I'm not about to worry about whether or not my phone can - there are plenty of other options. I totally agree with you regarding the size of the US market. In fact, that was my point above, the the US market is smaller than the European/Asian markets regarding wireless phones. That being said, the American market is hardly trivial - have you driven in a car lately and not seen at least several people on their phones? Walk down a street and see the same? Been to a restaurant without hearing someone's phone ring? There are 250 million-odd of us - the market ...
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Rich Brome

Nov 3, 2003, 5:45 PM
Okay - so if I'm hearing you right, you want high-end, powerful phones with real features, for GSM 850? I think manufacturers are listening to people like you. I think this is changing.

For example:
  • Sony Ericsson T616
  • Treo 600 (quad-band)
  • Motorola V600 (quad-band)
  • Nokia 6230
  • Nokia 6800 (and soon 6820)
  • Nokia 3600 (and soon 3620)


I know that's not a massive array, but then again we're really talking about just two carriers here - Cingular and AT&T. Even between the two of them, they can't carry every GSM phone out there. Given their already-large lineups, I would say a very good percentage of their current or upcoming phones are the kind of high-end phones it sounds like you...
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starscream

Nov 3, 2003, 7:49 PM
this guy backs up what i thought about 800 vs. 850 mhz

http://www.cellular-news.com/forum/viewthread.php?ti ... »
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starscream

Nov 3, 2003, 7:50 PM
starscream said:
this guy backs up what i thought about 800 vs. 850 mhz

http://www.cellular-news.com/forum/viewthread.php?ti ... »

erm.. the Bobolito guy a few responses down.
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Rich Brome

Nov 3, 2003, 9:42 PM
Yes - that is all correct. 800 = 850. If you look up "GSM 850" in the glossary on this site, you'll see a very similar explanation.
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wb

Nov 3, 2003, 11:14 PM
Equal in quality, just different band widths and spectrum issues. On one hand it is too bad that that 800 and 900 are not useful as a continuous spread, it would save a lot of money for international travelers.
On the other hand, in Urban America, businesses are largely in the 900 spectrum and they pay to keep it that way. They don't want the public running possible interference with business calls and transmissions. This same argument is coming from Public Safety branches.
Between PS and business interest the ideal of a solidly consistent range for cell phones is not possible in this country. The 850 is a battle cry for groups that worry that, among other things, cell phone users could be able to pick up relatively private single...
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Rich Brome

Nov 3, 2003, 11:32 PM
Huh? Confused

I didn't say anything about 900. I said 800 = 850. I said that because "800" and "850" are two terms for the exact same swath of spectrum. It's the cellular band, the original mobile-phone band in the U.S. There are two cellular and six PCS (1900) licenses for any given area of the country.

850 (AKA 800) is deployed in EVERY urban and rural area of this country where there is any cellular service at all. It's the spectrum used by the old analog (AMPS) systems, and CDMA and TDMA have been deployed there in various cities for many years, and now GSM is simply being deployed in this same spectrum as well.

900 is used for totally different things in this country (not cellular phones). When people talk about GSM 900, the...
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wb

Nov 4, 2003, 12:22 AM
Interesting fuss with Nextel, considering that PS used Nextel almost exclusively until just recently, for their cell phone carrier. But they tried to slap the frequency restriction on all the cell phone companies- not just Nextel. This ploy failed.

I will beg to differ. The 800-850 issue is not simply a swath of spectrum but are very specifically assigned frequencies within a given band. Those specific frequencies are assigned to specific users. My knowledge of how this plays out in the cellular world is a bit limited.
Both the old AMPS system and what is still currently used for PS in many areas are actually Analog systems.
With the advent of Digital systems the environment changed. Many police outfits in metropolitan areas ...
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Rich Brome

Nov 4, 2003, 1:15 AM
wb said:
Interesting fuss with Nextel, considering that PS used Nextel almost exclusively until just recently, for their cell phone carrier.


Yes and no. Public safety people may use Nextel for cell phone service, but they sure as heck don't use Nextel for dispatch and critical communications. It doesn't seem like you meant that, but I just wanted to clear that up before anyone else reading this confuses that issue.

I will beg to differ. The 800-850 issue is not simply a swath of spectrum but are very specifically assigned frequencies within a given band. Those specific frequencies are assigned to specific users.


Yes. Absolutely.

Just to expound on that a bit more:

Ev...
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scottj

Nov 3, 2003, 4:53 PM
well, I don't completely agree here. With respect to quad-band, I agree and my point was not that I want one. In fact, I could care less about 900/1800 - I rarely travel abroad and I'm not about to worry about whether or not my phone can - there are plenty of other options. I totally agree with you regarding the size of the US market. In fact, that was my point above, the the US market is smaller than the European/Asian markets regarding wireless phones. That being said, the American market is hardly trivial - have you driven in a car lately and not seen at least several people on their phones? Walk down a street and see the same? Been to a restaurant without hearing someone's phone ring? There are 250 million-odd of us - the market ...
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scottj

Nov 3, 2003, 5:00 PM
oh yeah, and, I guess I'm confused. A few posts ago your opionion was:

"Cingular is a huge, huge carrier. A couple years ago, they told manufacturers "we need GSM 850 phones". Such things did not exist then, but here we are and now there are plenty of them. If Cingular said "we need quad-band phones", there would be plenty of them on the market within 12 months. That's what needs to happen."

But then you post:

"Let's be realistic, here. Put all the GSM 850 carriers together, including AT&T and Cingular, and that's still a pretty small percentage of the global GSM market. Then combine that with the fact that not everyone needs or wants a world phone - most people just want a phone that works in their region.

So you can't expect e...
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Rich Brome

Nov 3, 2003, 11:41 PM
They're totally consistent.

Cingular, AFAIK, is mostly just asking manufacturers for GSM 850/1900 phones, and they're getting plenty of them. They're not (to my knowledge) putting an emphasis on global roaming service and demanding quad-band phones.

There also isn't huge demand in the marketplace for quad-band, so the manufacturers aren't putting huge effort into it.

But if Cingular decided they wanted to make a big push on the global roaming thing, and demanded quad-band phones, I think the manufacturers would jump and supply.

So what I said about manufacturers not seeing demand for quad-band, was in the absence of Cingular demanding it.
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scottj

Nov 4, 2003, 1:06 PM
OK, cool, then we're on the same page here. I don't want a quad-band phone - I just suspected that it might be easier and more cost effective to switch to it rather than to make two separate models with different bands. My whole point is that we do use 850/1900 in the US, we are not a trivial market and we should be seeing cutting-edge handsets made availble in the US - that combined, Cingular and ATTWS should have enough clout with handset manufacturers to cause this to happen - and we're not. I couldn't care less about 900/1800 - all I care about is GSM 850/1900, GPRS and EDGE. When I see handsets like the 6600, SX1, Sendo, MPx200, etc. etc. and know that I can't use them because I choose Cingular in MA and it's 850, it cheeses me off....
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