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Bluetooth Lawsuit

bear-vzw-csr

Jan 19, 2005, 1:37 AM
Okay, I'm a Verizon Wireless customer service representative, and I'm going to comment on this.

Of course, what I'm about to say is my personal opinion, and I am not speaking on behalf of VZW.

Advertising and hype for the V710 led customers to believe that file transfer would be available through the Bluetooth technology in the phone.

None of the collateral explicitly stated that it would be available, and verizonwireless.com has a page that explains that VZW currently supports only the DUN, handsfree, and headset profiles for Bluetooth. But this page is buried in multiple links. Even some salespeople might have thought that OBEX file transfer would be available on the V710, especially during the hype before the phone was released a...
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wnrussell

Jan 19, 2005, 8:39 AM
This is the first sincere response I have seen. Thanks for being honest and representing both sides of the debate.

There are only two questions I have now about Bluetooth relative to BREW and GIN:

1. Why isn't this an issue about the TransFlash card - why would the Bluetooth be able to transfer more files than the expansion card already does?

2. Wouldn't it be relatively easy to restrict the Bluetooth transfer ability to the shared folders on the handset, and make everybody happy with a firmware update that would do that?
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bear-vzw-csr

Jan 19, 2005, 12:55 PM
I don't know. The technology is way beyond me. This could be something that they are working on. Or maybe not.

In other posts, uses have complained that the update that WAS provided actually imposed restrictions on the functionality of the transflash card. So perhaps it IS an issue.

The information found on the "Nuclear Elephant" demonstrates that some workarounds have been found, and some of the functions of the V710 have been hacked.

So maybe OBEX can be limited in a way that will make it functional but not allow transfer of BREW apps. Maybe this restriction is still in the testing stage. They may want to make sure it can't be hacked.

This is all speculation on my part. And once again, I am not speaking on behalf of VZW. In pri...
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wnrussell

Jan 19, 2005, 1:03 PM
OK. Fair enough. I agree with Stevo2k4 that you do deserve a promotion.

If Verizon would have communicated like you have about the resolution to this problem, there would probably not be a Bluetooth Lawsuit going on right now.
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thehazmat

Jan 19, 2005, 1:05 PM
Verizons still gonna win. Motorolas backing up Verizon 100%.
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wnrussell

Jan 19, 2005, 1:31 PM
thehazmat said:
Verizons still gonna win. Motorolas backing up Verizon 100%.

Too bad you think there will be one winner - Verizon.

Wouldn't it be great if Motorola could design a handset that would enable Bluetooth and protect GIN at the same time?

The customers might hit a home run for VZW.
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SPCSVZWJeff

Jan 20, 2005, 6:02 PM
When a company becomes large they become a large and attractive target for any attorney looking to drum up business. Microsoft and WalMart are good examples of this.
Being sued does not necessarily mean there was any wrongdoing on Verizon's part it merely states there was an allegation of wrongdoing.
Of course Verizon's foes could not be happier, but believe me every company has enough to be sued over. Every company is watching their backs for lawsuits.
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VZWCustServ

Jan 22, 2005, 2:10 PM
I think we are looking at the wrong issue.

VZW's reason for limiting bluetooth is to prevent pirating of their precious $1.99/month or $6.99 games and ringtones. This has been a bad idea from the start. VZW's phones would be much more popular with the 18-29 age bracket if VZW unlocked all their phones and allowed you to upload/download/transfer whatever you want. VZW thinks that they would lose potential revenue from ringtone and game downloads that are pirated instead, but the people who are willing to pirate these things, have better targets. I'm not going to waste time hacking VZW games on my nokia. What I will do, is download freeware and shareware games onto my phone, and show ALL my FRIENDS how cool my VZW phone is. This is wh...
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wnrussell

Jan 22, 2005, 3:25 PM
VZWCustServ said:
I think we are looking at the wrong issue.

VZW's reason for limiting bluetooth is to prevent pirating of their precious $1.99/month or $6.99 games and ringtones. This has been a bad idea from the start... If people want stuff for free, they can get it, it's a waste of resources to try to fight it.

The wallpapers and ringtones can come from anywhere. It is silly for Verizon to think that would be a revenue leak.

It is irrelevant whether or not it might be possible to copy GIN applications between phones using Bluetooth - they WILL NOT RUN on a different phone, because they are locked using a DRM scheme.

You can copy a GIN app from a phone to your PC using a USB cable anyway, and ...
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wnrussell

Jan 23, 2005, 7:44 PM
VZWCustServ said:
I think we are looking at the wrong issue.

You are right!
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Stevo2k4

Jan 19, 2005, 1:05 PM
wnrussell said:
OK. Fair enough. I agree with Stevo2k4 that you do deserve a promotion.

If Verizon would have communicated like you have about the resolution to this problem, there would probably not be a Bluetooth Lawsuit going on right now.


Absolutely deserve it. If you need a reference, have em call me... 😉

~Steve
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akaszuba

Jan 20, 2005, 5:19 PM
I'm with Cingular. Cingular has something like Get It Now, it's called MEdia Net. If I buy a ringtone, wallpaper, or any kind of game from MEdia Net, it does not allow me to send it via Bluetooth nor MMS, when I try to it tells I cant due to copyright laws. When I was with T-Mobile, it did the same thing. Therefore I can only state this fact for Cingular and T-Mobile.

So if they are capable of preventing users from sending ringtones, wallpapers, and games between Bluetooth devices becauswe of copyright laws, wouldn't ya think Verizon would be just as capable of doing the same? In turn, not finding it necessary to disable OBEX?

I have considered the fact that MEdia Net and Get It Now are two different things and they may have not b...
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mycool

Jan 20, 2005, 11:04 PM
Ever use the T68i? You could send ringtones and pictures and themes over Bluetooth. And I'm sure you could find a work-around to allow you to send those items you get from Media Net.
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wnrussell

Jan 24, 2005, 9:47 PM
bear-vzw-csr said:
I don't know. The technology is way beyond me. This could be something that they are working on. Or maybe not.

In other posts, uses have complained that the update that WAS provided actually imposed restrictions on the functionality of the transflash card. So perhaps it IS an issue.

The information found on the "Nuclear Elephant" demonstrates that some workarounds have been found, and some of the functions of the V710 have been hacked.

So maybe OBEX can be limited in a way that will make it functional but not allow transfer of BREW apps. Maybe this restriction is still in the testing stage. They may want to make sure it can't be hacked.

This is all speculation on my part. And once again, I a
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bear-vzw-csr

Jan 25, 2005, 7:24 AM
You may be right when you say that BREW apps are already shielded. But I don't have access to concrete data on it.

In news articles that have appeared on the web since the lawsuit in California was filed, a VZW spokeswoman went on record saying that enabling OBEX could pose a problem for BREW apps. One article quoted her as saying that enabling OBEX would actually violate certain contracts between VZW and BREW developers.

Even if BREW apps are protected by DRM, the statement about contractual requirements could still be accurate.

Or it might be inaccurate. I probably won't be able to find an answer.

The lawyers will. If there really is a contract that effectively prohibits VZW from enabling OBEX in a BREW-capable phone, that cont...
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klapper2001

Jan 24, 2005, 7:33 PM
I'm glad VZW is being sued for this. 🤣 Finally, someone spoke out. Crippling bluetooth functionality is like driving a Ferrari with a Ford pinto engine in it. It's a ferrari alright but you can't go more than 60miles per hour.
Enough ripping off people VZW for dumb services such as GetItNow! Not only does VZW have the crappiest and most tehnologically behind phones compared to the GSM phones, they even limit the use of them. I might as well flush it down the toilet. The thing is VZW has been like this for a long time now - good network but crappy phones, i don't see any light at the end of the tunnel for them...
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Stevo2k4

Jan 19, 2005, 11:35 AM
Wow... I didn't know there were other VzW reps with common sense, rational thought, and the ability to express facts and opinions in an organized, well-thought out, comprehensive way. Bravo! I agree, and you should be promoted.

~Steve
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DSFB407

Jan 19, 2005, 11:46 AM
Bear, I totally agree with you and i take back everything i said about "all CSR's" are jerks. Because they all are not. I feel the same way as you and hope there is a change. Thank you for being honest and up front with your post. As a v710 verizon customer that is all we all want is some honesty and some truth about the issue from a person/s who are in the business.
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bizkitsngravy

Jan 19, 2005, 4:15 PM
So, besides backing VZW up, in what capacity is MOT involved with this lawsuit? Let's not forget MOT itself is on a full blown conquest to recover from previous years plaged with problematic equipment. They've invested a lot too.

Now, I know it wasn't MOT that controlled any settings, which makes me curious how they're involved to begin with if not trying to protect their own reputation in some manner

I don't know, anyone else have any ideas?
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hiyall

Jan 22, 2005, 3:51 PM
bear-vzw-csr,
excellent discussion and apparently you're more bold than vzw's senior management to at least respond (though you of course are incognito and not the "official line".

Having recognized you achievement, I still must disagree with your analogy about the coffeemaker not having a timer as being vzw's problem...the problem here is that BLUETOOTH is an INDUSTRY STANDARD PLATFORM and that status as "INDUSTRY STANDARD" means it has implicit and explicit features. It took severla years for a group of representatives across many companies "AGREED" on the standard called BLUETOOTH, not unlike the conceptual standards called "ethernet", USB, USB2, "firewire", and so on. NO SINGLE MANUFACTURER has the right or should be so presumptous...
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M0NTI

Jan 25, 2005, 2:03 PM
bear-vzw-csr said:

Preventing the copying and transfer of BREW games and other apps is no different than any other consumer app such as Microsoft Word, which can only be loaded onto one computer. BREW developers won't make any money if you can give the game to all your buddies for free.




I have to disagree with this....Brew game apps are much different from Word and the like, because PC apps are store bought and produced for any PC, were BREW apps are downloaded to a specific peice of hardware. Security for BREW applications can be as easy as during Verizon's download sequence, they query for the phone's MAC address (or whatever phones use to distinguish unique hardware) and encrypt that into the a...
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Manatee

Jan 25, 2005, 4:34 PM
I don't even know what OBEX and BREW are, and as an adult, I have absolutely no interest in downloading games to my phone.

What I DO want to be able to do with my Bluetooth phone is:

1. Connect to my iPaq PDA so I can access the web and my e-mail via my cell phone.

2. Connect to my car (Acura TL) so I can make use of the great hands-free features that come with it.

So far I have been unable to do either with my V710. I have to carry my T-Mobile phone to do these things. And they work fine with the T-Moble phone - an old SE T68i.

Why can't VZW make the most modern phone work in these situations? Do they not see how people will want to use cell phones going into the future?

The reason I use VZW is that both my wife and I have...
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VZWagent

Jan 25, 2005, 6:41 PM
I support your feelings towards brew in most cases, but a common mistake is that it only gives you games and ringtones, if you ever get a free minute you should check out some of the other apps that brew has to offer. As far as the service goes to the automobile its only a matter of time before VZW has to flash the 710 because of the lawsuit, keep in mind the new audiovox xv6600 is now available which would cancel the need of the ipaq, and will suport the acura configuration. Just a thought
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wnrussell

Jan 25, 2005, 6:54 PM
VZWagent said:
As far as the service goes to the automobile its only a matter of time before VZW has to flash the 710 because of the lawsuit, keep in mind the new audiovox xv6600 is now available which would cancel the need of the ipaq, and will suport the acura configuration. Just a thought

If the Audiovox PDA has a full Bluetooth stack, then why does Verizon so strongly resist putting that on the V710 handset?
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Aarynk

Jan 25, 2005, 7:27 PM
wnrussell said:
VZWagent said:
As far as the service goes to the automobile its only a matter of time before VZW has to flash the 710 because of the lawsuit, keep in mind the new audiovox xv6600 is now available which would cancel the need of the ipaq, and will suport the acura configuration. Just a thought

If the Audiovox PDA has a full Bluetooth stack, then why does Verizon so strongly resist putting that on the V710 handset?

Because the xv6600 is not get it now capable
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ygbhen

Jan 31, 2005, 7:07 PM
Get It Now seems to be the problem. It is the reason that I returned my Verizon Wireless phone after my 15 day trial and went with another carrier. Who the hell do these guys think they are telling me where I have to get my ringtones, wallpaper, and etc. from. That was too opressive for me. Lets just agree to get rid of BREW and activate all the features of bluetooth.
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wnrussell

Jan 31, 2005, 8:50 PM
ygbhen said:
Get It Now seems to be the problem. It is the reason that I returned my Verizon Wireless phone after my 15 day trial and went with another carrier. Who the hell do these guys think they are telling me where I have to get my ringtones, wallpaper, and etc. from. That was too opressive for me. Lets just agree to get rid of BREW and activate all the features of bluetooth.

GIN is NOT the reason why VZW won't enable OBEX. The Bluetooth does not have any more transfer ability than a data cable or expansion card already allows.

When BREW 2.x is in the Qualcomm 3G chipset on a phone when you download a GIN app it encrypts the app so that it will only play on that phone. For example if you took an ...
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Manatee

Jan 25, 2005, 7:56 PM
Thanks for your response. I really hope I'll be able to use the phone with my car soon.

VZWagent said:
keep in mind the new audiovox xv6600 is now available which would cancel the need of the ipaq, and will suport the acura configuration. Just a thought


For a casual user, this might be true. The iPaq hx4700 that I use has a full VGA (640x480) screen, has slots for both Compact Flash and SD cards (I have a 2Gb CF card and a 1Gb SD in it right now), and most importantly -- it's independent of any phone I choose to use it with. No matter what continent I'm on, or which carrier I'm using at the moment, I just open the browser and it makes the Bluetooth connection to the phone and connects to the web. (Excep...
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gauch

Jan 30, 2005, 9:57 AM
keep in mind the new audiovox xv6600 is now available which would cancel the need of the ipaq, and will suport the acura configuration. Just a thought


The new Audiovox xv6600 WILL NOT work with the Acura'a HandsFree Link!! It works with incoming calls only.
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mjh

Jan 28, 2005, 1:08 PM
To put it bluntly... VZW did mislead the customer... Sales was not adequitly trained... And now, they are trying to remove even more functionality with the software update... But, what is worse is that Motorola flat out lied...
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TheNakedLibrarian

Feb 28, 2005, 1:44 PM
I just came across this thread, and just wanted to say: When someone like Brenda Raney speaks for the company, I feel like Verizon, interested in only maximizing short-term profits, is happy to play me for a chump, and I start shopping around for a new carrier. If all VZW representatives spoke plainly like you, Bear, and communicated a genuine interest in fixing problems and dealing squarely with their customers, I'd be one of those customers for life. Bear, would you PLEASE do us all one more favor and use your good sense and verbal skills to communicate this on all our behalf back to Verizon?
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