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Nokia Acheives EDGE-WCDMA Roaming

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EDGE/WCDMA

muchdrama

Oct 13, 2004, 11:10 AM
I wonder how long after WCDMA goes live in most urban areas this roaming feature between it and EDGE will go into effect? I'm assuming we won't see this for quite some time due to the logistics of the pending merger of ATTWS and Cingular's networks.
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CainMarko

Oct 13, 2004, 12:48 PM
I'm guessing that by the time that the UMTS service is launched "nationally" by Cingular, this will be available. This type of handoff has been anticipated and I'm sure it will be available soon after it's available in the rest of the world. You have to understand that even tho the Cingular/ATTWS merger will have some technical hiccups, it won't be as difficult as many people are saying. Both ATTWS and Cingular had/have the same 3G goals which means a complete UMTS/EDGE based 3G network.
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viper

Oct 13, 2004, 1:07 PM
One way to read this is that operators want UMTS in the densely populated/urban areas and EDGE elsewhere.

so in other words it might be taken as more evidence that the operators in europe and elsewhere seek to limit UMTS coverage.

In europe getting 70%-80% penetration is very realistic because that means covering the cities. Going beyond that gets really really expensive because you need a Lot of towers.

Then again, EDGE to UMtS handoffs had to be proven sooner of later so it might mean very little. I thought it was already proven actually.
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CainMarko

Oct 13, 2004, 6:26 PM
viper said:
One way to read this is that operators want UMTS in the densely populated/urban areas and EDGE elsewhere.

so in other words it might be taken as more evidence that the operators in europe and elsewhere seek to limit UMTS coverage.

In europe getting 70%-80% penetration is very realistic because that means covering the cities. Going beyond that gets really really expensive because you need a Lot of towers.

Then again, EDGE to UMtS handoffs had to be proven sooner of later so it might mean very little. I thought it was already proven actually.


It has ALWAYS been the plan to use UMTS in urban areas and EDGE where UMTS wasn't practical or NEEDED. That's how Lucent, Ericsson, Nortel, and ot...
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CainMarko

Oct 13, 2004, 6:27 PM
Oh and to clarify, UMTS will eventually be as widespread as Current GSM coverage. It will be what we use when we are shifting to 4G.
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viper

Oct 14, 2004, 7:35 AM
"It has ALWAYS been the plan to use UMTS in urban areas and EDGE where UMTS wasn't practical or NEEDED."

No it has not. If you went to Europe in 2000 and you told the operators and vendors there that EDGE would be deployed in europe they would have laughed at you.

Support for EDGE in Europe is a departure from what was expected. EDGE was ignored in Europe because there were high expectations for UMTS and data services to take off.

The US is a different matter. EDGE was given support here relatively early by ATT initially. AT&T took a lot of heat for that.
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CainMarko

Oct 14, 2004, 7:45 AM
Excuse me, I have READ the "white papers" from Lucent, Nortel, and Ericsson. They ALL explain that UMTS and EDGE will be used together. Get your facts straight. You can view ANY of these "white papers" at:
http://www.umts-forum.org »
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viper

Oct 14, 2004, 8:17 AM
"Excuse me, I have READ the "white papers" from Lucent, Nortel, and Ericsson. They ALL explain that UMTS and EDGE will be used together. Get your facts straight. You can view ANY of these "white papers" at"

I don't doubt that those white papers say that. You are describing the current prevalent view.

I also don't doubt that north american centric vendors (nortel, motorola (lucent does not sell gsm gear)) have always supported EDGE. What i am telling you is that the view of EDGE has changed in Europe.

EDGE was considered a no-go in europe until within the last two years when UMTS's problems became quite evident.

That is why TIM's (telecom italia mobile) announced support for EDGE was such a big deal last year. EDGE was initiall...
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CainMarko

Oct 14, 2004, 10:27 AM
viper said:
"Excuse me, I have READ the "white papers" from Lucent, Nortel, and Ericsson. They ALL explain that UMTS and EDGE will be used together. Get your facts straight. You can view ANY of these "white papers" at"

I don't doubt that those white papers say that. You are describing the current prevalent view.

I also don't doubt that north american centric vendors (nortel, motorola (lucent does not sell gsm gear)) have always supported EDGE. What i am telling you is that the view of EDGE has changed in Europe.

EDGE was considered a no-go in europe until within the last two years when UMTS's problems became quite evident.

That is why TIM's (telecom italia mobile) announced support for EDGE was such a big d
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viper

Oct 14, 2004, 12:22 PM
Relax man. I said lucent does not make GSM equipment. They don't. As for cingular vs ATT being first. I saw AT&T network migration plan in 2000 and it said TDMA-GSM-EDGE to WCDMA if needed. I don't recall a similar statement out of cingular until later. In any case, and i don't think it really matters if ATT or cingular was first, EDGE was perceived as dead until it got US support.

The entire point i was trying to make is that EDGE is now perceived as viable in Europe, a stance which has changed in the last 18 months.

Many european operators will still not talk about EDGE but it was a lot worse 18 months ago.

To talk about EDGE 18-24 months ago was perceived as a slight on UMTS. Many of those European carriers invested heavily in...
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CainMarko

Oct 14, 2004, 12:27 PM
umts IS gsm... but I know what you are differentiating on. UMTS is a WCDMA technology... Lucent does make CDMA and WCDMA equipment.
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viper

Oct 14, 2004, 1:06 PM
GSM is not UMTS. They are completely different air interfaces.

GSM is a TDMA air interface. UMTS is wideband cdma. That is a big difference.

They do share elements in the core network though.
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CainMarko

Oct 14, 2004, 2:26 PM
UMTS of course is a different technology than GSM, but it belongs to the GSM family. Oh, and UMTS is not JUST WCDMA... it actually uses a TDMA overlay on top of the WCDMA signal. The japanese invented it. GSM uses a TDMA signal with an FDMA overlay. I KNOW my technologies, so keep the schooling down to a minimum, as I am well studied and you will just get frustrated trying to trump me.
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viper

Oct 14, 2004, 4:38 PM
CainMarko said:
UMTS of course is a different technology than GSM, but it belongs to the GSM family. Oh, and UMTS is not JUST WCDMA... it actually uses a TDMA overlay on top of the WCDMA signal. The japanese invented it. GSM uses a TDMA signal with an FDMA overlay. I KNOW my technologies, so keep the schooling down to a minimum, as I am well studied and you will just get frustrated trying to trump me.


GSM and WCDMA are about different as two interfaces could get. Code division vs. time division. There is use of time slots in cdma but GSM that does not make it.

In any case. Lucent does not sell GSM equipment. Why don't you call them and ask them yourself.

PS: no is trying to school you. The fact rem...
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CainMarko

Oct 14, 2004, 10:15 PM
Where in any of my posts do you see that I said "Lucent Sells GSM"? I never DID. I said that Lucent is doing UMTS for Cingular. The WHITEPAPERS for Lucent and every OTHER UMTS provider, explains the UMTS/EDGE combination and how they will work together. I've read them.
You should probably also know that cdma does not use time slots. Neither does WCDMA. UMTS was a japanese invention that uses a TDMA overlay on a WCDMA radio signal. There is one other WCDMA radio signal that is considered "3G". It uses a FDMA overlay on top of the WCDMA signal. Now, the lovely folks at Seimens have a thing called TD-CDMA and TD-SCDMA(Time Division-Synchronized Code Multiple Access) that are supposedly going to revolutionize everything, but they are still tes...
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viper

Oct 15, 2004, 7:48 AM
TDMA by definition is use of time slots.

Time-division-multiple duplexing. All of those CDMA technologies employ time slots or do you think they just transmit on all the time?

TD-SCDMA has nothing absolutely nothing to do with GSM or the GSM family and when you say UMTS is the same as GSM you are saying just that. What you meant is that TD-SCDMA is an ITU defined variant of 3G. UMTS is the evolution of GSM which is defined by the 3GPP.

UMTS was not invented by the japanese. It is European. FOMA serivce is powered by the Japanese version of WCDMA. Japan and Europe use slightly different variants of WCDMA. By the way a lot of people from all over participated in the development of UMTS.

3GSM, WCDMA, and UMTS are the same thing no...
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viper

Oct 15, 2004, 8:52 AM
quick correctoin

tdma = time-division-multiple-access.
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CainMarko

Oct 15, 2004, 10:12 AM
I think you need to go back to school. cdma does not use time slots. it uses CODE DIVISION. TD-SCDMA is also a GSM FAMILY technology. UMTS was NOT invented by europeans, they invented the FD-WCDMA technology. UMTS WAS INVENTED BY NTT DoCoMo. UMTS is NOT the same as WCDMA. That's like saying GSM is the SAME as TDMA. They are not and you know it... or maybe you don't. My best friend is a network engineer for Cingular and we hang out with several people from Ericsson AND LUCENT. I'll take the word of their engineers over yours. You should look further into this, because the only thing you are demonstrating is that there IS confusion over the different terms. You keep saying that GSM is a SPECIFIC technology and it is NOT. It's a FAMILY of techn...
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viper

Oct 18, 2004, 7:54 AM
All cdma must use time slots as i previously told you nothing transmits all the time. there has to be a way to control the medium resources.

The multiplexing in TDMA is considered to be a result of division of time and use of slots. In cdma you use a spreading code to allow mutliple users to share the same resources.

TD-SCDMA has nothing to do with GSM or 3GSM or UMTS. you are confusing TD-SCDMA with UMTS TDD, which are different beasts.

Docomo uses WCDMA. They don't call it UMTS. The architects of UMTS were mainly european but, again as i mentioned, a lot of representatives from all over the world took part in that little fiasco called UMTS.

" My best friend is a network engineer for Cingular and we hang out with several peopl...
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CainMarko

Oct 18, 2004, 9:37 AM
Well... buddy. You need to re-read that last post i typed up. It is a quote from www.gsmworld.com It SPECIFICALLY states that TD-SCDMA is a 3GSM TECHNOLOGY. It will be used as a 3G GSM technology. It IS different than UMTS. I never said it was the same. YOU are the ONLY one confused. Once again you are wrong. At this point, you are either just being stubborn or are purposely being obtuse. The FACTS are there. You may view them. They prove you are wrong. Please research this a little more thoroughly before responding with more incorrect information.

if you need help, you may visit:
http://www.gsmworld.com »
for more information. Please educate yourself.
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CainMarko

Oct 18, 2004, 10:33 AM
Ok. You have just proved your general lack of understanding of wireless technology.
CDMA does NOT use time slots. It is used ALL AT ONE TIME. It's divided by code NOT TIME.
"CDMA is a "spread spectrum" technology, allowing many users to occupy the SAME TIME and frequency allocations in a given band/space. As its name implies, CDMA assigns unique codes to each communication to differentiate it from others in the same spectrum." -cdg.org
there is NO time division used in CDMA. please reference the CDG website as THEY have all of the correct information you apparently need.

On to your next incorrect statement:
please click this:
http://www.gsmworld.com/technology/3g/faq.shtml#q9 »
According to GSMWORLD.com AND SEIMENS AND the 3gp...
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Inquisitor_Hoth

Oct 14, 2004, 3:54 PM
You know their is some you should know. UMTS is completely diferent from CDMA. THeir only similarity is that they both CDMA in their abreviations but they are infact two completely different technologies. know your stuff a lttle bit better bub.
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