Home  ›  News  ›

AT&T to Officially Mandate Data Plans for All Smartphones

Article Comments  

all discussions

show all 43 replies

More than fair:

bp3dots1

Aug 25, 2009, 11:51 AM
I agree that people buying unlocked phones from outside sources should have the choice. With the stipulations:

-All data has to be blocked, or if PPU is chosen, the customer has no availability for disputing the incurred PPU charges.

-No subsidized pricing on handsets bought from carrier stores/3rd party sellers.

Of course, the outcry would be just as bad when the "I don't use data" crowd found out they had to pay full price for their handset, and then a month later, realized that they were screwed by all those nifty applications they wanted to try cost them hundreds of dollars. (Obviously wouldn't be everyone, but there would be a lot of people that did this.)

There's good reason for locking data plans. For example - I had a ne...
(continues)
...
Phoner

Aug 25, 2009, 12:09 PM
bp3dots1 said:
I agree that people buying unlocked phones from outside sources should have the choice. With the stipulations:

-All data has to be blocked, or if PPU is chosen, the customer has no availability for disputing the incurred PPU charges.

What about using data on wifi?

-No subsidized pricing on handsets bought from carrier stores/3rd party sellers.

Well, the phones are at least partly subsidised by the voice plan. Have three price structures for hand sets - "no commitment", "voice only", and "voice with data".

Of course, the outcry would be just as bad when the "I don't use data" crowd found out they had to pay full price for their handset
...
(continues)
...
bp3dots1

Aug 25, 2009, 12:23 PM
as to your points:

1 - Wifi? Knock yourself out. Go wild.

2 - Could work.

3 - The first part (handset price) would be more of a before it's sold issue. The second part ("oops useage") would still have to be paid for, so there would still be complaining. Ofc people can return the handset within 30 days, but as usual they are charged for any usage they incurred.

4 - Why should the carrier have to micromanage YOUR useage? I suppose if the carrier didn't mind implementing whatever code changes were necessary for the extra prompts/monitoring its ok. But I see no reason why the customer should have to be babysat through their useage that they decided on at the time they signed the contract.
...
marufio

Aug 25, 2009, 12:29 PM
I dont think the company does enough to explain data charges and how easy it can be use large amounts of data which costs unplanned large amount of money. Thats why you have so many people in your face. Nonetheless they are still responsible. Company also knows that by not stopping a customer from going over their limits on data they can make tons of money. Its not micromanaging. Same thing with a bank.
...
bp3dots1

Aug 25, 2009, 12:38 PM
Explaining the data charges would vary by whoever you dealt with, so it is very possible that someone didn't get it explained that well. However, everything is available in writing.

Me and my staff make it a point wo go over everything as best we can. I actually have very few people in my face that got their service from us initaly. The provided example was one particular customer who decided to ignore what I told her so she could try to lower her bill. - She tried to take advantage and got what she deserved IMO.

And sure, if people aren't responsible about their useage they'll end up paying more, yeah the company knows it, but the company is in it for money. All fair in my book.
...
Phoner

Aug 25, 2009, 1:01 PM
bp3dots1 said:
And sure, if people aren't responsible about their useage they'll end up paying more, yeah the company knows it, but the company is in it for money. All fair in my book.


But from that point of view, angry support calls of "irresponsible" customers who think they've been tricked, is a normal part of the business and is to be expected.
...
bp3dots1

Aug 25, 2009, 1:30 PM
Sad but true.
...
Phoner

Aug 25, 2009, 12:46 PM
bp3dots1 said:
as to your points:
3 - The first part (handset price) would be more of a before it's sold issue. The second part ("oops useage") would still have to be paid for, so there would still be complaining. Ofc people can return the handset within 30 days, but as usual they are charged for any usage they incurred.

Granted. But there's always some complaining and techsupport calls from first-time buyers. I doubt this single scenario is significant enough.

4 - Why should the carrier have to micromanage YOUR useage? I suppose if the carrier didn't mind implementing whatever code changes were necessary for the extra prompts/monitoring its ok. But I see no reason why the customer should h
...
(continues)
...
doomtroll

Aug 25, 2009, 2:52 PM
"If my credit card locks out when I exceed the credit limit, why can't my phone data do the same?"


This could cause just as many problems, because customers don't track what data they use, and a vast majority would complain once they hit their cap and couldn't use it till they either changed their plan, or waited till their next billing cycle started.

These "ideas" are all fine and good. But Companies who sell service (even outside wireless) are trying to please and or protect the majority, knowing full well they can not please everyone, as that would be impossible...
...
mrpmpfan

Aug 25, 2009, 3:55 PM
The number one thing that would fix all of this is if people would use phone data and aircards for what they aren't meant to be used for. Normal websurfing and email, not streaming video and gaming.
...
doomtroll

Aug 25, 2009, 4:15 PM
The whole argument about this change is people not using things as they are intended, which is most of the problem.

Its the same reason people complain when they find the voided their warranty, for using the devise in a way, or altering it in a way, that the manufacturer states voids the warranty.

Sadly I wish the carriers would make things like this more Black & White as warranty is. But no onee ever reads the warranty conditions either.
...
Phoner

Aug 25, 2009, 4:35 PM
doomtroll said:
The whole argument about this change is people not using things as they are intended, which is most of the problem.

Well, there's this whole concept of "buying" - after I bought something, it's mine, so I'm free to use it in whatever way I want it.

Sadly I wish the carriers would make things like this more Black & White as warranty is.

To make things truly black and white, they'd have to sell devices, financing, and voice/data services all as separate products. Which would be really difficult to do, as current consumers are not used to this price structure.
...
bp3dots1

Aug 27, 2009, 7:36 AM
Normally we're on the same page Phoner, but the issue I see here is that while you bought the phone, it's running on their service. So It's not unresaonable that they have a say in what services they provide you.

Just like (to be extreme) I can't buy a phone, then call and say I want 700 anytime minutes, free N&W every other week, Unlimited Wednesday texting, and free incoming calls on Mondays from 8am to 12pm. - Although that kind of custom plan would be badass... 😳
...
mrpmpfan

Aug 28, 2009, 6:46 PM
When you purchase a big mac you can do with it what you please: eat it, throw it at someone you don't like, make love to it. But when your device you purchased requires additional services to fully function you are at the whim of the provider of your choice.
...
asLeepLessman

Aug 29, 2009, 11:56 AM
Ahh, yes. In the end, this is true. This however isnt my point (i would say our point but frankly, there are too many points tossed around on this issue to know for sure whos point is what at this point). I didnt debate wither or not they CAN do it or are allowed to do it. Nor wither or not we are at thier whim. Nor did I debate what rights they have as a business to do what they want with their business. Simply explaining as to why I believe its wrong. I think its wrong that the Supreme Court dismissed the Recount from public record. Meaning, No lawyer in America can use the Recount Case as part of a example in any other case. Yet, they did it anyway. So in the end your right, it doesnt matter what we think because we are at their whim (gov...
(continues)
...
mrpmpfan

Sep 1, 2009, 10:18 AM
The point is that if a car company required a gas card on all their cars they would go out of business very quickly, unless all of them were doing it.

However if on premium cars they required the purchase but had other lesser cars without the card needing to be purchased they might improve business.

People do not need to buy a Smartphone when they have no plans on using it for its intended purpose. There are plenty of non-smartphones that have txt, mms, and email options that have data opt out or $10/month data plans.
...
Phoner

Sep 1, 2009, 10:57 AM
As far as I'm concerned, the phone company is free to sell anything they like. If they don't offer what I want, I'll buy it from a different company.

mrpmpfan said:
People do not need to buy a Smartphone when they have no plans on using it for its intended purpose.

Smartphones are by nature universal devices, like computers. Their "intended purpose" is very broad.
There are plenty of non-smartphones that have txt, mms, and email options that have data opt out or $10/month data plans.

What if my favorite eBook reader happens to be a WinMo program? What if my favorite GPS software works on WinMo platform (and no, it doesn't use cellular data)? What if I need a full-blown PDA t...
(continues)
...
mrpmpfan

Sep 2, 2009, 12:50 PM
Please explain to me what functions you do on a Blackberry that you can't do on a Samsung Impression? You just said you don't take advantage of the Blackberry Internet email services so what do you do that can't be accomplished on a non-smartphone?
...
Phoner

Sep 2, 2009, 1:22 PM
Who said anything about Blackberry? I need to be able to run Windows Mobile software. Samsung Impression runs a proprietary OS.
...
asLeepLessman

Sep 2, 2009, 4:25 PM
More specifically...

Phoner said:
But what I need is a Windows Mobile mini-computer with GPS, wifi, and text keyboard, that also functions as a phone.


Nobody has gave you a answer yet Phoner. lol! Every time you mention this everyone over looks it and the debate continues somewhere else.

Truth is, if this is what you need, you need a Smartphone without Data. Yet, nobody will admit to that and so you will continue to try and explain your point in different ways that they will not except.

Oh and btw... for the record.... AT&T considers the Impression SGH-A877 a smartphone. So that wouldn't work neither as he would need Data for that phone also. Sorry!
...
Phoner

Sep 2, 2009, 4:50 PM
asLeepLessman said:
Truth is, if this is what you need, you need a Smartphone without Data. Yet, nobody will admit to that and so you will continue to try and explain your point in different ways that they will not except.

I'd put it this way - I need a smartphone, and don't care about cellular data. Certainly don't care enough to fork over $30 per month for it. From my POV, this is simply a way for AT&T to get more revenue and cut overhead - at my expense.

Everything else is just trying to sugar-coat the bitter pill. Like those "if you can't afford a measly $30 per month, then don't..." I'm sure each of those posters can afford sending $50 a month to me, why don't they?!

At the end though, i...
(continues)
...
mrpmpfan

Sep 3, 2009, 8:22 AM
Phoner said:
I'd put it this way - I need a smartphone, and don't care about cellular data. Certainly don't care enough to fork over $30 per month for it. From my POV, this is simply a way for AT&T to get more revenue and cut overhead - at my expense.


You have home internet don't you?
You have car insurance?
You have cable/sat TV?
Pay for online gaming?

You see how some if not all of these things are not 100% needed yet are extras you choose to pay for.
...
Phoner

Sep 3, 2009, 9:44 AM
mrpmpfan said:
You have home internet don't you?
You have car insurance?
You have cable/sat TV?
Pay for online gaming?

I do have home internet, pay for it, and use it. I do have car insurance, pay for it, and yes, I absolutely need it. I have life insurance, too - bought it, because I need it. Don't have cable/sat TV, don't have / don't pay for any kind of gaming. I watch movies on a projector, hooked up to a DVD player - not a single TV receiver in the house.
You see how some if not all of these things are not 100% needed yet are extras you choose to pay for.

What's your point? You ever heard of cost/benefit analysis? I pay the least money to get me only the benefi...
(continues)
...
mrpmpfan

Sep 3, 2009, 12:35 PM
Have fun when your phone has an issue and its not covered by AT&T's warranty or insurance. Explain what you do on a smartphone that can't be done on a messaging phone like an Impression or Xenon?
...
Phoner

Sep 3, 2009, 1:25 PM
mrpmpfan said:
Have fun when your phone has an issue and its not covered by AT&T's warranty or insurance.
Yup, it's a risk. But as it is, AT&T warranty doesn't cover the entire term of contract - which is pretty scandalous, if you ask me.
Explain what you do on a smartphone that can't be done on a messaging phone like an Impression or Xenon?
I'm pretty sure that I explained it several times in this thread, but here it is again: A messaging phone won't let me run WinMo software that I like (eBook readers, text editors, third party GPS programs that don't depend on cell data, etc). It also won't let me try out things that I write for it myself. Finally, I like to know how my stuff w...
(continues)
...
mrpmpfan

Sep 4, 2009, 8:18 AM
Phoner said:


Yup, it's a risk. But as it is, AT&T warranty doesn't cover the entire term of contract - which is pretty scandalous, if you ask me.

Name me a single cellphone company that has a warranty that covers the entire 2 yr contract? On top of that the warranty is the maker of the phone to uphold not AT&Ts.
Phoner said:
I'm pretty sure that I explained it several times in this thread, but here it is again: A messaging phone won't let me run WinMo software that I like (eBook readers, text editors, third party GPS programs that don't depend on cell data, etc). It also won't let me try out things that I write for it myself. Finally, I like to know how my stuff works, so I ca
...
(continues)
...
Phoner

Sep 4, 2009, 10:01 AM
In case you've forgotten, you were asking why I needed a smartphone without data. Is your curiousity satisfied?
mrpmpfan said:
Name me a single cellphone company that has a warranty that covers the entire 2 yr contract?
What's your point? I just used AT&T as example. You asked me what do I do if I ran into a warranty problem. The answer - I'd have to eat up the cost, just like somebody whose phone broke down before the warranty expired. And if that happened before the end of their contract, they are still on the hook for the service charges or early termination fees.

On top of that the warranty is the maker of the phone to uphold not AT&Ts.
Warranty is just money, and ch...
(continues)
...
mrpmpfan

Sep 3, 2009, 8:19 AM
Impression is not considered a smartphone it works with the $10 family data plan. But your "need" for a phone with GPS, wifi and texting keyboard sounds like you should pony up the $40 it requires to have the data plan and GPS service. If you absolutely need the services you need to pay the costs associated with them.

You don't need a cellphone period, no one does, because life went about normally without the use of cellphones for thousands of years.

Need - Water, Food, Shelter
...
Phoner

Sep 3, 2009, 9:09 AM
mrpmpfan said:
Impression is not considered a smartphone it works with the $10 family data plan.
That's what I thought, too.

But your "need" for a phone with GPS, wifi and texting keyboard sounds like you should pony up the $40 it requires to have the data plan and GPS service.
You and I already pay for the GPS "service" through taxes. The $10 per month is AT&T's price of using the "navigator" software subscription, which is abolutely useless to me. I already have a dedicated car GPS. I'd only use GPS in my phone for hiking. Also, my hiking and driving is often outside of the cell range - which means the navigator wouldn't work.

If you absolutely need the services
...
(continues)
...
mrpmpfan

Sep 3, 2009, 12:37 PM
Programming ideas? Really? If you are a WinMo programmer what are you programming?
...
Phoner

Sep 3, 2009, 1:14 PM
Right now it's an embedded device that sits on a vehicle and talks to vehicle controllers over a proprietary data network. It's based on WinCE 6.0 - that's the platform that the WinMo 7.0 will use.

I'd love to have a WinCE 6.0 device, but they are few and far between. For my needs, WinMo 6.x (which is based on WinCE 5.2) is good enough for light prototyping.
...
mrpmpfan

Sep 4, 2009, 8:14 AM
Talks to a car's controllers? To do what? You must be a busy programmer if you have time to come on here and type a response to ever story.
...
Phoner

Sep 4, 2009, 10:13 AM
mrpmpfan said:
Talks to a car's controllers? To do what?

Lots of things. Mainly - monitor, troubleshoot, and update. And by the way, not everything that is called "vehicle" is a car.
You must be a busy programmer if you have time to come on here and type a response to ever story.
This is weak even by your standards.
Grasshopper, you have lots to learn 😁
...
Phoner

Aug 31, 2009, 8:37 AM
bp3dots1 said:
Normally we're on the same page Phoner, but the issue I see here is that while you bought the phone, it's running on their service. So It's not unresaonable that they have a say in what services they provide you.

I don't have a problem with AT&T controlling their services (before I sign a subscription contract).
What I don't like, is them controlling the device that I bought, for example choosing which third party apps I can and can't install on it. To me, it's like somebody selling you a computer without an administrative password.
Plan-sponsored or not, that phone is bought, not leased or licensed out like a set-top TV box.
...
Menno

Sep 3, 2009, 1:47 PM
This I can agree with, provided that they can still block programs that negatively impact their network.

(such as a program that allows you to clone sims, or one that hacks the network to give you dedicated bandwidth no matter what, etc)

If it's a program like skype/Google Voice/Google maps, I do think that consumers should be able to download it, providing they have a plan/phone capable of supporting it.
...
Phoner

Sep 3, 2009, 3:17 PM
I thought SIM cloners run on PCs, and use hardware to read/write SIM cards. I guess there's no reason one couldn't write one for a cellphone 🙂
In general - if you've got users running an open OS, you better be ready for all sorts of malware. Unfortunately, phone companies try to deal with it by locking down the devices, so the OS is no longer open - bathwater and baby both locked out.
...
Menno

Sep 3, 2009, 5:57 PM
I was just throwing stuff out there.


If someone created a program that actually impacted the network, the carrier should reserve the right to lock it out. I agree that they are currently a bit heavy handed though.
...
Phoner

Sep 4, 2009, 9:34 AM
In general, there are two ways to impact the network. The first one is creating too much traffic (doesn't matter malicious or not). That one is easy to fix - throttle down or cap the bandwidth.

The other way is malicious - faking out packet headers, screwing with router tables and priorities, pretending to be a server or a different device, that sort of thing. Locking the app won't fix this one - most likely, the app in question circumvents the security system anyway (has a spoofed signature, is running on a device with custom ROM, etc). The only way "fix" this one is to have a full-blown security department.

I really can't think of a case when locking out a specific app is a good solution for network problems.

On the other hand...
(continues)
...
Menno

Sep 4, 2009, 10:49 AM
I was more thinking the security team.. and if they detected a malicious program (that second example) they would just throttle your data (quite a bit) not lock the program, and then have some way to unlock it.

I don't think a company should be able to go in your phone and edit stuff (we agree there) but I do think that there has to be some way for them to stop a single user from destroying their network capability (whether they mean to or not).

I'll give you an example with a computer (since it is more common). Two years ago, some virus cloned my Brother's computer IP and email (they did a deep scan on his system and he had nothing on his actual computer) But this virus was using his IP to send out over 100,000 spam emails an hour...
(continues)
...
Phoner

Sep 4, 2009, 11:20 AM
Well, imagine that you're a network admin. To stop that virus, you'd need to log in to your brother's machine - either remotely, or in person. So, you'd need a password to an account that allows remote access. And, once you stopped the virus, your brother could simply start it again (accidentally).

To lock out a program permanently, so that your brother can't restart it, you'd need higher privileges than your brother - on his computer. If you're both admins, he can just delete your account, or change its privileges, locking you out.

This is slightly different when dealing with signed applications on a WinMo phone, but the gist of it is the same. I can generate my own trust certificate, install it into the root store,...
(continues)
...
Phoner

Aug 25, 2009, 4:26 PM
doomtroll said:
This could cause just as many problems, because customers don't track what data they use, and a vast majority would complain once they hit their cap and couldn't use it till they either changed their plan, or waited till their next billing cycle started.

Well, customers really can't track the data traffic. Not without specialized tools. Do you know how much bandwidth your browser used when it loaded this web page? All the HTML, images, css sheets, put together?

Make that tracking obvious and easy to use, and you'll get rid of a lot of angry customer calls. On the other hand, you'll also get rid of a lot of "pay per use" charges, so there's a trade-off.
...
Menno

Aug 25, 2009, 2:32 PM
I can't talk for ATT, but with All verizon Aircards (providing you use the VZ Access Manager to connect) it will actually pop up your current usage (including any international roaming) and tell you when your bill will reset.

It does this whenever you connect to the network. you can also track your usage manually by checking it under the usage tab. They don't have an auto-lock option to my knowledge, but the overage works out to only be $60 a gig or so, which is a lot more manageable than some competitors rates. Since they went to the new pricing I don't know if they do it anymore, but when it used to be 250+ a gig they would actually cap the first two bills at a certain amount of charged overages.

I did hear somewhere that ATT sent...
(continues)
...
Phoner

Aug 25, 2009, 4:28 PM
With AT&T, one can check your minutes and data usage by logging on to their website. Or download a third-party usage monitor program. But I don't think there's any active data usage tracking. The tools are there, but they require active participation.

It comes down to this: People get high bills they didn't expect, because they didn't pay attention. So AT&T gets to charge "pay per use" rates, but also gets the angry support calls.

I wonder if it was a business decision on the part of AT&T, or just "nobody thought of it".
...
bp3dots1

Aug 27, 2009, 7:42 AM
Phoner said:
With AT&T, one can check your minutes and data usage by logging on to their website. Or download a third-party usage monitor program. But I don't think there's any active data usage tracking. The tools are there, but they require active participation.


Correct. AFAIK you have to install the tracker for netbooks and aircards, and for handsets I believe there are 3rd party app as well. (not sure what all operating systems they run on though.)
...

This forum is closed.

Please log in to report a message to the moderator.

This forum is closed.


all discussions

Subscribe to Phone Scoop News with RSS Follow @phonescoop on Threads Follow @phonescoop on Mastodon Phone Scoop on Facebook Follow on Instagram

 

Playwire

All content Copyright 2001-2024 Phone Factor, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Content on this site may not be copied or republished without formal permission.