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Top Carriers Hit With Lawsuits

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Question for... well anyone...

Protege

Jul 10, 2006, 7:43 AM
Cingular was legacy TDMA 800 MHz before they rolled out GSM 850Mhz in my market. When I was up for renewal back in 2003 which when this happened, I was told I had to pay an upgrade fee on top of the price of the phone with renewal.

My question is, why are they charging me (existing cust) an additional upgrade fee if new customers were only paying the price of phone with contract???? Why should I have to pay an "upgrade fee" if I'm renewing and it wasn't my fault that they "upgraded"???? 👿
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burger_with_fries81

Jul 10, 2006, 8:59 AM
The upgrade fee isn't "an additional" fee... it applies to all customers upgrading regardless of what technology they are coming from.
New customers also pay an activation charge, which by the way is double what you'd pay to upgrade...
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vaspider

Jul 10, 2006, 10:12 AM
The upgrade fee is an unnecessary fee that Cingular charges because it can. Whatever anyone else on here tells you, it's not a necessary fee and not every company charges it. All it requires to upgrade is a quick scan-in of the phone, changing your contract's end-date in the computer and the paper to print your upgrade receipt. Anyone who believes that is worth $18 is insane.

If you don't want to pay upgrade fees, try the company that has the most satisfied customers in the wireless industry three years running.

T-Mobile. ;)
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Protege

Jul 11, 2006, 11:13 AM
🙂
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trippin

Jul 11, 2006, 3:47 PM
They'll get there. T-Mobile is still relatively new, and i've heard NOTHING but bad things about it here in florida. At least with the other major carriers I can get a signal...
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vaspider

Jul 11, 2006, 3:56 PM
Relatively new? No. T-Mobile is a branding/buy-out of Western Wireless & Voicestream, and has existed since 2001 as the T-Mobile USA brand (VZW, and Cingular, comparatively, have existed as brands since 2000). Voicestream, which Deutsche Telekom -- hardly a newbie in the telecommunications business -- purchased, has been around at least long enough that some of my co-workers have been working for the company in one form or another for nine+ years.

T-Mobile has made a conscious decision not to charge upgrade fees; they're not just too new to do so yet.

I'm not sure where you are in FL but T-Mobile is pretty damn big down there. If you check www.t-mobile.com, you can check street-level coverage anywhere in the US and be sure what kind o...
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RUFF1415

Jul 11, 2006, 5:04 PM
Verizon puts street level coverage maps on their website.

And Cingular offers a street level coverage map on the business portion of your website.

Other companies do it. Sometimes you just have to open your eyes and look for it.
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vaspider

Jul 11, 2006, 5:09 PM
Verizon's coverage map offers zip-code level coverage maps, not street-level. Ditto Cingular. T-Mobile allows you to pinpoint any postal street address in the US, which, sorry, those maps don't do. Not only that, VZW and Cingular's consumer-facing maps only show you a blanket of coverage, they don't show you ACTUAL coverage, which anyone who is any level of truthful about cellular coverage will know varies.

Nice try, but no -- they're not the same or as honest and helpful to the consumer in making realistic coverage determinations as T-Mobile's PCC.
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RUFF1415

Jul 11, 2006, 5:11 PM
Well clearly you haven't used Cigular's map then. You can most definitely pinpoint any postal street address in the US on the map.
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vaspider

Jul 11, 2006, 5:15 PM
Oh, have they started copying T-Mobile's PCC? That's cute. ;) Where is it? On the front page of the website, like T-Mobile's? All I can find on the front page of the website & the front page of their business site are the printouts from their brochures.

I'm still not buying it -- no one is as forthright about their coverage as T-Mobile is, and showing me a nationwide coverage map (or a multi-state coverage map like VZW's) isn't going to convince me otherwise. In fact, it proves my point.
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RUFF1415

Jul 11, 2006, 5:32 PM
T-Mobile:

http://www.t-mobile.com/coverage/default.aspx? »

Cingular:

http://63.241.153.180/coverageviewer/B2B.html »

Do me a favor and type in Pittsburgh, PA 15223
in each. Zoom into street level, the highest zoom.

They look pretty much like the same map to me. 😲
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vaspider

Jul 11, 2006, 5:34 PM
... you have to have a numeric IP to get the coverage map? ;) Hee! That's cute!
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RUFF1415

Jul 11, 2006, 5:35 PM
That's the link that I have bookmarked. Do I have to look it up for you? 🙄
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vaspider

Jul 11, 2006, 5:38 PM
See, hon, that's kind of my point. T-Mobile has their street-level coverage ON THE FRONT PAGE of their site, where it can be easily found by anyone, & no one had those kind of maps publicly accessible before T-Mobile did. Even now, when they are, they're buried deep enough that the average consumer won't find them.

Thank you for proving my point again and again. Good night!
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RUFF1415

Jul 11, 2006, 5:43 PM
Yay, T-Mobile did something first in the history of the wireless industry!

Too bad it isn't doing them any more good than it was when people couldn't see how sad the coverage looks in comparison to some of the competition.

It's really not a competition killer.

You too. 😉
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jenn_torres

Jul 11, 2006, 10:11 PM
T Mobile was the first to have PCC for Customers which is a good idea. It gives the customer the piece of mind to know that they will or will not get coverage in the areas that they visit. It also helps them make the decision over who they want to go with. Cingular did not put that into effect until after T Mobile started the PCC. The proble with Cingular's Mti is that it IS IN FACT difficult to find. For dealer's you have to log in to pos then go to the CSP then log in to CSP then find the MTi link then enter the address then decide if you want a cingular or at&t and then it will show you the coverage. Cingular has probably fixed that Im not sure because I have not gotten onto CSP in a while.

THE GOOD thing about the MTi is that it w...
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RUFF1415

Jul 12, 2006, 1:34 AM
jenn_torres said:
Cingular ain't that great buddy. 😉

Right. And neither is T-Mobile.

Opinions, you know.
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burger_with_fries81

Jul 12, 2006, 12:44 PM
The address to a specific page on a website has absolutely nothing to do with how easy it is to find said page...
If this form accepted HTML I'd give you an example..
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RUFF1415

Jul 11, 2006, 5:13 PM
And yes, Cingular's map does designate whether the coverage is best, moderate, good, partner, or no coverage.
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vaspider

Jul 11, 2006, 5:16 PM
Again, buried in Azerbaijan? Not helpful, and not on the front page of the website like T-Mobile's, -and- released after T-Mobile's was.

I used to work for Cingular corporate -- I know the spiel. Spare me, ok? ;)
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timslo

Jul 11, 2006, 7:00 PM
Spare us with your "holier than other big cellphone companies" dialogue. T-Mobile is not perfect and Cingular ,or anyone, else do not deviate from the overall scheme of things: MONEY! T-Mobile doesn't charge upgrade fees now and they do put that lame map on the website, but with other companies making their existing customers pay a fee to renew service, which is revenue in the opinion of most including myself, they will leave T-Mobile behind when it comes to revenue which will put them in a very bad situation later on down the line when larger companies are upgrading to newer technologies while T-Mobile is still using 1900 Mhz.
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calvinjeni

Jul 11, 2006, 5:22 PM
yeah cingular does have a map - and dont they have less dropped calls than all the other companies, if u consider they also have more customers ... its OBVIOUS they dont even NEED the map!
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vaspider

Jul 11, 2006, 5:35 PM
No, it's enough for them to just, you know, say their coverage is better and wave their hands around. Don't ask them to make it easily accessible to customers or anything. They don't like that. 😁
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burger_with_fries81

Jul 12, 2006, 12:41 PM
Cingy reps have access to street level coverage maps.. go to any store and ask to do an address check.
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timslo

Jul 11, 2006, 6:53 PM
I just had to chime in about T-Mobile's street map, and it's really not impressive. Sure Cingular and Verizon do not put this type of map on their website, but I would not want the influx of customers who see this as a guarantee of coverage to come in to my store or call in to customer service. Cingular, and I'm sure Verizon, has maps like this on their agent sales portal. I use it when explaining coverage to customers to give them an idea as to what the service may be like. This should only be used as a sales tool and sparingly. I mostly use it for customer service purposes when a customer complains about service in their house or in a particular area, and most times there are other factors that affect service like the structure of the buil...
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vaspider

Jul 11, 2006, 7:03 PM
Yeah, they'll need the bogus revenue to pay off lawsuits, I guess. Spare me -- I worked at Cingular, and I left because I couldn't stomach the lies I was asked to tell anymore. Yeah, I work for T-Mobile because I think they don't screw over their customers, and if your only response is "this BS fee is a legitimate revenue stream," well... yeah. I hope it will help pay off the lawsuits. Nobody's suing T-Mobile, they don't need hush money. ;)
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timslo

Jul 11, 2006, 7:21 PM
They may not need hush money, but they will need something to expand their coverage and improve their data service.
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vaspider

Jul 11, 2006, 7:24 PM
That stuff they get by selling service? Y'know, that thing the companies are supposedly in business to do? 🙂 You don't need extra money from bogus fees if you don't have to pay off lawsuits due to your, ah, business practices.
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timslo

Jul 11, 2006, 7:35 PM
Huh? Your still way off.
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vaspider

Jul 11, 2006, 7:40 PM
... I'm way off by stating that companies should generate revenue by selling the service that they're supposedly in business to sell, and that should be how they make money to build improvements?

😳
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timslo

Jul 11, 2006, 7:53 PM
When you are in business, you have to find anyway possible to increase revenue. Cutting corners and making sacrifices while still providing the best product you can. No matter what your business is, providing the BEST product costs money and you still want to make a profit. This is a very capitalist statement but, you can never have enough revenue.
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burger_with_fries81

Jul 12, 2006, 12:51 PM
vaspider said:
Yeah, they'll need the bogus revenue to pay off lawsuits, I guess.


Is the fee not legitimate? The customer knowingly pays it, so how would it not be? Or are you saying it isn't revenue? Cingy makes money off the fee, so how isn't it revenue?

If a customer can't stomach an $18 charge to upgrade equipment they can go somewhere else...

If the customer is willing to pay it then so be it.
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vaspider

Jul 11, 2006, 7:09 PM
And I end up responding to the wrong one of your posts. Heh. Actually -- T-Mobile tied with or beat VZW in coverage & call quality in a whole slew of major markets. (Check the JD Powers reports.) As for the tool being best used sparingly, obviously T-Mobile doesn't think so, as it's weighted very heavily in their sales scoring & is available on the front page of their website. A lot of the major carriers talk a big game, but they don't like to provide the easily-accessible tools for customers to make an honest comparison. Now, why would I want to do that if I were a big company? If I REALLY had the best coverage, wouldn't I want everyone to see that?
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timslo

Jul 11, 2006, 7:17 PM
It is still an inaccurate map tool. Showing someone best, good, and poor coverage, or whatever terms you use, is worse than showing the broad coverage. ANYTHING can affect cell coverage and what if your customer who lives in a black hole (or whatever you want to call a poor reception area) in the middle of your "best" coverage area? There's a chargeback and a bad experience with the company. Since they are a big company, they are showing you their coverage and all of the roaming agreements they invested in. The customer sees exactly what it needs to see. And T-Mobile is a major carrier. They will be left behind unless they figure a way to bring in more revenue and offer more coverage.
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vaspider

Jul 11, 2006, 7:22 PM
It's actually pretty damn reliable. When I use the map tool, I set accurate expectations. When I don't... I'm more likely to get a chargeback.

And as far as bringing in more revenue? How about... I dunno. Selling products & services? I know that's a radical idea as opposed to charging random fees.
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timslo

Jul 11, 2006, 7:49 PM
Just like the other post. 🙄 It's not like Cingular doesn't provide GOOD service. Look at their net customers. (please don't bring up churn cause everyone puts up with it) How could Cingular buy AT&T? They were part of a merger that brought in a lot of money and from then and as far as I remember they had upgrade fees. They had the MONEY to do it. I don't know what you're talking about as far as "random fees."
Heck, when T-Mobile came out and offered GSM with really cool phones and devices, Cingular was pushing those crappy GAIT phones and expensive V60s that weren't even worth it. They had an opportunity to really do some damage in the industry and yet they chose to stand by with their cheap plans and limited coverage and there still...
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vaspider

Jul 11, 2006, 7:53 PM
Please don't put words in my mouth or insinuate that I set unrealistic expectations for a customer. I'm not your straw woman, k? I left Cingular because they lied to their customers and they asked me to lie, which is exactly why people are suing them.

It's impossible to have a conversation with someone when they put words in your mouth. Yes, you have to be honest with a customer -- that's why the coverage map is there and why T-Mobile pushes its usage so much: so we can set expectations, not make promises.

Whatever. Go turn someone else into your strawman. An ethical rep can't work for a dishonest company. Period.
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timslo

Jul 11, 2006, 8:04 PM
Sorry, but anyone who uses the coverage map to set expectations is not a good salesperson. If you are successful by using it, then good for you. It's merely my opinion.

I thought we were having a good conversation, but if I insulted you by explaining a scenario that I have experienced and have learned from then so be it. That was not my intention.
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johnnyslick

Jul 12, 2006, 3:05 AM
Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot. When a customer comes into your store asking if you have coverage in an area, how do you determine this? Keebler elves? A poll among the customers and reps currently in the store? Prayer? Maybe I'm way off base or something, but the coverage map for *any* company is there precisely for the purposes of setting expectations. You don't *guarantee* anything, and you advise the customer to use your return policy and go to the places they're going to use the phone, but if you're not utilizing your coverage map to set expectations, you're not doing your job.
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timslo

Jul 12, 2006, 7:08 PM
Cingular is large enough company where you all you would have to say is, "All of our plans are nationwide. So you won't pay roaming or long distance." They keep it basic and simple. I ask a customer where he/she will use there phone and based off of what I know and information I gather for them, I set the expectation whether it will or will not work. Most customers use their phone regionally, so based off of other customers and customer service experiences, you can properly set expectations for their area. After asking a customer how much traveling they do or where they expect to go (vacations, emergencies, where the folks live) then I look at the map and assure them of whether the service will work or not. The coverage map is there for cust...
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timslo

Jul 12, 2006, 12:01 AM
Why did you really want to end this thread? Is it because I was making to much sense in your "T-Mobile is the most honest copmpany and don't want to screw anybody" world? Please! Open your eyes to the realities of business and our capitalist society. It's impossible to have a conversation with someone who is delusional since YOU were putting words into MY mouth.

https://www.phonescoop.com/news/discuss.php?fm=m&ff= ... »

Get over yourself!
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burger_with_fries81

Jul 12, 2006, 1:00 PM
Now, why would I want to do that if I were a big company? If I REALLY had the best coverage, wouldn't I want everyone to see that?


I don't think it is open to speculation as to if T-Mo has better coverage than Cingy.. I understand you didn't say it but you seem to be insinuating it. If Cingy has a crappy network wouldn't TMo have crappy coverage since they are getting much of their nationwide coverage from the orange guy?

Heres a clue as to why other carriers dont need easily accessible PCCs.. most customers dont even know such things are out there. They dont care. Most customers live and work in areas that are blanketed by coverage as it is and a PCC would simply confirm that. It's pointless. PCC isn't that bi...
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ApocketPC4u

Jul 12, 2006, 11:47 AM
vaspider said:
The upgrade fee is an unnecessary fee that Cingular charges because it can. Whatever anyone else on here tells you, it's not a necessary fee and not every company charges it. All it requires to upgrade is a quick scan-in of the phone, changing your contracts end-date in the computer and the paper to print your upgrade receipt.



An upgrade fee is used to cover revenue loss from churn among other things. Lets say theoretically you sign a 2 year contract and get a V3 Razr for $50.. The retail price is $380. That means you signed a contract and got a $330 discount on a phone, well if you were to break the contract it would only cost you $175.. Thats like cingular paying you $155 just to try t...
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vaspider

Jul 12, 2006, 12:29 PM
T-Mobile's ETF is $200 -- so they don't charge upgrade fees, and those who stay with them don't get penalized for those who leave. Hell, Cingular's ETF in some places is over $200 and they still charge upgrade fees.

I remain unconvinced.
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RUFF1415

Jul 12, 2006, 12:53 PM
vaspider said:
Hell, Cingular's ETF in some places is over $200 and they still charge upgrade fees.

Any ETF that is not $175 is a prorated ETF.
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vaspider

Jul 12, 2006, 2:04 PM
Well aware -- still, there are ETFS Cingular charges that are over $200, and they charge an upgrade fee as well.

As I said before -- I used to work for Cingular. I know the song and dance. I still believe their practices are unethical. 🙂
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timslo

Jul 12, 2006, 7:10 PM
It is stated in the terms and conditions of how much the ETF is in every state. Cingular does not charge over $200 to cancel. Am I putting words in your mouth?
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timslo

Jul 12, 2006, 7:14 PM
😁 Couldn't help myself with that one spider. 😉
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burger_with_fries81

Jul 12, 2006, 1:05 PM
Who cares... people pay it and Cingy keeps adding customers. Get over it.
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vaspider

Jul 12, 2006, 2:07 PM
Ahh, yes. "People keep falling for it so it must be okay." The last refuge of the shyster. Whatever. 🙂
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ApocketPC4u

Jul 12, 2006, 2:13 PM
vaspider said:
T-Mobile's ETF is $200 -- so they don't charge upgrade fees, and those who stay with them don't get penalized for those who leave. Hell, Cingular's ETF in some places is over $200 and they still charge upgrade fees.

I remain unconvinced.



Yea, T-Mobile has their pluses too, people often fail to realize that many of their complaints are practically nominal from company to company. If you really want to win when choosing a carrier you have to decide whats most important to you, net cost of the service for the contract length, or network quality and reliablility. Customer service will always vary depending on who you talk to on what day of the week, no company attracts bad reps more...
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dancedjeric

Jul 14, 2006, 4:30 PM
Unfortunately, whether you are a Cingular or former ATT customer, or a customer on most any other carrier, all require you to pay an upgrade fee anytime you upgrade to a new device. Sometimes this is waived depending on the promotion but almost all have it. This isn't just a fee for moving from ATT to Cingular. Cingular charges it's own customers the same fee to upgrade if you want a new phone, so do the other carriers. But, I do know for a fact that there have been multiple promotions throughout the past few years waiving this for ATT customers (keep in mind, regular Cingular customer still had to pay this) giving ATT customers an edge to upgrade. Also, many promotions were available which on top of the Cingular rate plans, gave former...
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